My peons are so estupido, they'll believe ANYTHING!"
Posted on 12/06/2005 6:28:53 AM PST by GOPGuide
In a bid to bypass critics, the Senate will pass the plan and then merge it with a House bill, observers say.
Washington - Republican leaders will try to pass President Bush's controversial guest-worker proposal without putting it to a direct vote in the House.
Observers say the new GOP strategy that begins today is for the House to deal only with the more politically palatable issue of increasing border security and clamping down on employers. Republican leaders then will let the Senate pass some form of a guest-worker plan.
After that vote, senators and House members will merge the House's border security bill with the Senate's legislation in closed-door meetings.
The House will then vote on the final package, which will include some guest-worker provision, according to a GOP aide familiar with the plan, a Colorado lawmaker and other observers.
The strategy is designed to avoid a divisive debate and contentious vote in the House.
"There is a widespread expectation that that is how it's going to play out," said Tamar Jacoby, immigration expert with The Manhattan Institute, a conservative think tank. "I think it would be hard to pass in the House without the Senate going first."
The legislation that is likely to be the core of the House's immigration bill is expected to be introduced today. Sponsored by Rep. James Sensenbrenner, R-Wis., it tightens border security and forces employers to verify workers' citizenship. It does not address guest-worker issues.
Rep. Tom Tancredo, R-Colo., the biggest opponent of the president's guest-worker
proposal, said the strategy limits his ability to challenge the measure. "They're doing it this way because they know in the House they'll run into a buzz saw and maybe my name's on it," said Tancredo, who heads the 92-member Immigration Reform Caucus in the House.
Sensenbrenner's bill is expected to be voted on within the next two weeks. That allows House members to visit their districts for the Christmas break and say that they passed immigration reform, Tancredo and Jacoby said.
But the House members will be aware of the plan to build in a guest-worker program through the conference committee, said Grover Norquist, a Republican strategist who often serves as an informal liaison between Congress and the White House.
"The president's made it clear he wants both (border security and a guest-worker program)," Norquist said.
I'm sure future president hillary is adamantly opposed to this.
The ultra-liberal San Francisco Chronicle is doing a poll on the Minutemen. Are they a.) patriotic citizens, or b.) dangerous vigalantes. Check in with your two-cents at http://www.sfgate.com
Republicans selling America down the river....
Let's do multiple replies here:
>...These people are here illegally. You have to provide a path for them to become legal...
So if I steal your car, you will have to find the way for me to legally keep it.
>
No. A person who breaks the law pays their debt to society in whatever way the court decides that he should. Sometimes that is prison. Sometimes parole. Sometimes paying a fine.
A procedure for illegals to become legals would involve jumping through administrative hoops and perhaps paying a fine. If they don't have cash, you give them a social security number and have the employer embed it and get them on the books. Then you garnish their wages incrementally to get the fine paid.
The difference between you (guys) and me is my goal is to get money from them. Your goal (inadvertently) is to increase SS taxes by deporting precious working age people who could be put on the books.
If you think they are going to continue to cheat, this procedure works in your favor. No one is more aggressive pursuing people than the IRS. If they are documented and it is found that they have jobs and are being paid under the table and not paying taxes, they'll be found by the IRS nazis, far more effectively than by immigration.
>>3rd world immigrants including Mexicans and all those illegal aliens will never help Social Security they way you think. In fact they are welfare users right now. Many or most are tax cheats and pay in minimal amounts
>>
Well of course they are. They are undocumented. Getting them documented is far far more valuable than deportation. Advocating deportation advocates tax increases.
>>To save Social Security, there must be a procedure put into place to convert these people into tax paying residents.
Social Security is a socialist scheme that needs to be done away with. Yet as we have seen, there is not the will in Congress to even begin that task in earnest. I'm not sure why we need a mandated retirment system at all, except that seeing it fail means a lot of people who paid into it will get screwed.
>>
Well, okay, if that is your goal, then let's proceed. Make sure you say it up front in the House Immigration Caucus. Have them come out in front of the microphones and say "It is my goal to take action on immigration that will destroy Social Security." Then after they lose the next election GOP primary we can move forward with their replacement getting these people to pay the fine for their illegal action and get documented.
>>Also, I don't think mass importation of unskilled labor is the answer to SS's woes. Suppose we do give amnesty to 10 to 30 million illegals, and they then did pay taxes. What is to stop another 10 to 30 million from invading the country and undercutting those workers under the amnesty, working as those here now illegally who work for less preciscely because they do not pay those taxes? What good will thirty million "amnetized" illegals do for us if they don't have a job because they have been replaced by more illegal invaders working under the table?
>>
I don't think the population numbers in Mexico supports this theory. Also, a part of the process is to be improved border security, isn't it?
One who pays a fine and executes the process for becoming a proper legal immigrant can't really be called amnetized, can they? Would not amnesty presume no fine, i.e., no debt to society was paid? Calling them amnetized is like calling a parolee from a prison amnetized after he serves X years for a crime. He paid his debt to society and got turned loose. Just like G. Gordon Liddy. Is Liddy amnetized? No, of course not.
The procedure is when you do something wrong, you pay your debt to society and proceed through life. A process for getting these precious working age bodies documented so that there need be no Social Security tax increases is clearly a good thing.
I'm pretty sure that I and others have explained this to you before, but you keep singing that same sad tune. Bush has signed a Totalization agreement with Mexico to give ILLEGAL aliens full SS benefits with 1/6th the time needed to work that a US citizen needs. It will apply to their entire family in MEXICO. "Guest workers", legal entrants also receive benefits. They will ALL get old or "disabled". These "immigrants" will never pay as much into SS as they will take. Many already get SSI. This will destroy what little life there is left in the SS system.
Please, get this deeply embedded in your head, stop peeing down our leg and tell us it's raining. Thanks.
bump!
ping
When someone breaks into your house, the first order of business is to remove him immediately, by any means necessary.
The harsher means, the better, since it reduces recidivism.
You want to give him the house instead..
Screw you.
And your Tranzis in D.C.
No, the difference is we have morals and you want money. We love America, you want to sell out for cash.
>
The difference between you (guys) and me is my goal is to get money from them
No, the difference is we have morals and you want money. We love America, you want to sell out for cash.
>
Well I guess I'm lucky to be in a world with folks who can be the arbiters of my morals. Without them, where would I be.
The crime committed does not warrant death. Why is a fine an inadequate punishment for the crime committed?
If an amnesty is given to the millions of illegal aliens currently in the United States, our federal government will have forgiven the fact that these illegal aliens entered the country illegally by not enforcing the laws against them that mandate that they should be deported for having violated our immigration laws. Just because these illegal aliens might be required to pay a fee (or a fine, if you please) doesn't mean that these illegal aliens didn't receive an amnesty for having violated our laws.
The crime they committed warrants a one-way plane ticket to whereever the F%^& they came from.
The crime they committ right now is one you would be in jail for if you yourself committed it.
The crime they committ is costing us billions since 1/3 of the federal prison pouplation are illegal aliens.
>
If an amnesty is given to the millions of illegal aliens currently in the United States, our federal government will have forgiven the fact that these illegal aliens entered the country illegally by not enforcing the laws against them that mandate that they should be deported for having violated our immigration laws. Just because these illegal aliens might be required to pay a fee (or a fine, if you please) doesn't mean that these illegal aliens didn't receive an amnesty for having violated our laws.
>
Why is this called amnesty? Clearly it is, rather, punishment and parole. They are punished for their crime, they pay their debt to society and they then are documented and fund your parents' Social Security. What can possibly be bad about this?
This proposal I'm making is a punishment and parole program. They violated the law. They are punished properly as is any other lawbreaker. They then toe the line and fund Social Security. Get It Through Your Heads. There is No Other Source Of Working Age Adults Available. Period and Full Stop. If you advocate deportation of working age people, you are an advocate of Social Security tax increases.
All these other statistics about tax burden flying around are not talking about working age men. They are talking about women with children who happen to be US citizens. Yeah, those single mothers are probably a tax burden, as all single mothers without jobs are. There's nothing different about them other than that their kids are citizens and they are not.
This proposal is about funding Social Security and it is about the men, or single non mother women. It is they who it makes no sense economically to deport.
OWEN's response is such absolute common sense, its unimpeachable. The immigration issue has nothing to do with politics, per se, its all about simple common sense.
We are presently allowing a level of Mass Immigration that is unprecedented in human history. There is a very obvious reason why no other nation has ever allowed this. We are going to find out that reason.
WATCHING IN AMAZEMENT is such a hopeless dunce, he doesn't even deserve a response. These immigrants flooding into our country are not going to "save Social Security." What total madness. If these people are such an asset to our economy, then why are they fleeing their OWN economically ruined countries to attach themselves like parasites to our country in the first place? Mass Immigration quite simply is going to bankrupt our country. All you have to look at is the incredibly high standard of living we enjoyed in America just 40 years ago. Before the Mass Immigration started. And its been downhill ever since. Its total madness I tell you. How stupid are these people? They're beyond reasoning with or debating with. Their insane.
Legal immigrants can also fund Social Security. If we need more foreign workers, we can let in more legal immigrants. We don't need illegal aliens in the United States for any reason.
This proposal I'm making is a punishment and parole program. They violated the law. They are punished properly as is any other lawbreaker. They then toe the line and fund Social Security. Get It Through Your Heads. There is No Other Source Of Working Age Adults Available. Period and Full Stop. If you advocate deportation of working age people, you are an advocate of Social Security tax increases.
I want to replace illegal alien lawbreakers with legal immigrants who haven't violated our immigration laws. By doing this, Social Security will continue to be funded and Social Security taxes will not need to be increased.
This proposal is about funding Social Security and it is about the men, or single non mother women. It is they who it makes no sense economically to deport.
If we deport illegal aliens and replace them with legal immigrants, we will keep the American economy going strong.
You obviously have ZERO experience or knowledge of how the real world works. They are here illegally to work for cash under the table to send home with paying taxes on the same. The employers benefit by not having to pay increased insurance costs and FICA taxes, etc etc. Its sort of a conspiracy against the taxpaying slobs like the rest of us.
The minute this shamnesty goes through, there will be millions of more illegals flooding in here to work for lower wages and cash to send home all while we have the millions of low skilled laborers already here.
If you did what these people are doing every day you would be in jail. Try telling your employer, that is if you are employed, that you do not want any money taken out for taxes and only want cash. See what you are told.
You are naive and foolish if you think this is not going to change our country in a profoundly negative way. As far as SS is involved, how the heck are these people going to save a program that they will be one day sucking dry to the bone? They are not going home after 6 years, or do you believe that because King George decreeed it so????
>
You obviously have ZERO experience or knowledge of how the real world works. They are here illegally to work for cash under the table to send home with paying taxes on the same. The employers benefit by not having to pay increased insurance costs and FICA taxes, etc etc. Its sort of a conspiracy against the taxpaying slobs like the rest of us.
>
But this is not how the world would work if illegals are punished and paroled. As fully documented workers, they would insist on jobs where SS is witheld from their paychecks for the very obvious reason that this is how they would qualify for their own pensions someday.
Sure, there are people out there who would like to work and not pay the SS tax. Employers would be breaking the law just as much with an American working off the books as for an illegal working off the books. Remember the Nanny Tax? That's what this was all about.
This is not about emotion. This is about mathematics. The baby boom is going to erase Social Security, and then they are going to start starving. Anyone who shows up promising to feed them out of the Federal coffers is going to get elected and we all know who is most likely to make that offer.
If you advocate deportation rather than punishment through fine, documenting and expanding the SS tax base, then you are advocating tax increases. There Is No Mathematical Way Around This. Demographics define this.
Make your choice. Do you advocate extra government spending on escorted busrides to the border and sharp, painful increases in SS taxes or do you want to punish illegals, parole them and make them contributing members of society. There are no other choices.
My peons are so estupido, they'll believe ANYTHING!"
This is a mistake, both for the country and for their political careers.
Of course there are other choices. Yours is simply a sellout that will lead to millions more coming to wait their turn for absolution.
Illegals have CLEARLY proven one thing, they do not care about the law. Nor do those that employ them. These two forces will continue their secret collaboration. That, you can bet the farm on.
If you think about your solution, you will see it is a zero gain, and likely a net loss. Any gain in FICA withholdings, will be negated by social service tax dollars consumed.
Here's one more thing for you to chew on. A large percentage of the 15 million+/- Illegals are employed with false/stolen SS#'s. This money has been going into the the SS system for decades without anyone stepping forward to file claims against it. Despite these millions(?) of unclaimed dollars the system is still in trouble. You however, claim allowing "guest workers" to take out, as well as put in, will save the system for us all. Nonsense.
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