Santorum: Don't put intelligent design in classroom

Beaver County Times & Allegheny Times ^ | 11/13/5 | Bill Vidonic

[Crackingham]

U.S. Sen. Rick Santorum said Saturday that he doesn't believe that intelligent design belongs in the science classroom. Santorum's comments to The Times are a shift from his position of several years ago, when he wrote in a Washington Times editorial that intelligent design is a "legitimate scientific theory that should be taught in the classroom."

But on Saturday, the Republican said that, "Science leads you where it leads you."

Santorum was in Beaver Falls to present Geneva College President Kenneth A. Smith with a $1.345 million check from federal funds for renovations that include the straightening and relocation of Route 18 through campus.

Santorum's comments about intelligent design come at a time when the belief that the universe is so complex that it must have been created by a higher power, an alternative to the theory of evolution, has come under fire on several fronts.

A federal trial just wrapped up in which eight families sued Dover Area School District in eastern Pennsylvania. The district's school board members tried to introduce teaching intelligent design into the classroom, but the families said the policy violated the constitutional separation of church and state. No ruling has been issued on the trial, but Tuesday, all eight Dover School Board members up for re-election were ousted by voters, leading to a fiery tirade by religious broadcaster Pat Robertson.

Robertson warned residents, "If there is a disaster in your area, don't turn to God, you just rejected him from your city."

Santorum said flatly Saturday, "I disagree. I don't believe God abandons people," and said he has not spoken to Robertson about his comments.

Though Santorum said he believes that intelligent design is "a legitimate issue," he doesn't believe it should be taught in the classroom, adding that he had concerns about some parts of the theory.

[adam_az]

"This is a creo thread. On creo threads, Catholics are not even Christians."

...you should see the Calvinist v Arminian threads, for a real hoot!

[b_sharp]

'ts ok.

If you review my posts in this and other threads you'll find I seldom resort to name calling. It takes a while before I get to that point.

[after dark]

I do not think all the people who love Darwin's theory are bigots ,or Marxists just those who want segregate anyone who went to schools that taught ID in dummy college classes. Of course a guy from some hellish madrassa where Darwin was not taught would be welcomed into the regular college classes with open arms. This is a slap in the face of many Christian schools which work hard to teach Physics and Chemistry.Of course the Christian colleges will pick up the slack. Those who can't afford private colleges will have no choice but to major in business. Science will loose some intelligent minds because of religious bigotry.Based on some of the insults being slung at Christian evangelicals ,why would anyone care if I thought those slinging the insults had impure motives?

[ICE-FLYER]

Which of the dozens of Gospels that existed in circulation in the 2nd Century A.D. (before the final amalgamation of the modern Bible) do you consider to be part of this so-called "purist" form?

Let me guess...you're going to "educate" me as to the "actual" Bible and what "actually" happened, and how it is "actually" a disjointed conglomeration of text written by men, changed, played with, handed down, adulterated and that a group of people just "picked" out and put together for their own purposes to oppress people by controlling the text and thus the Bible we know today is nothing like the Bible which was written centuries ago, am I right?

OR

Are you seriously asking a question here which you do not know the answer to?

OR

Are you trying to lawyer me by asking a question to which you feel you have the "absolute" answer to which supports your view which, if I am correct, is to simply discredit the Bible altogether?

[tuckrdout]

Well, I have to say that you got me there. You are right. Conservative thought 101...I slipped into a liberal mind set there for one moment...thinking that the voters are not smart enough to make their own decisions...my bad.

[Quark2005]

Let me guess...you're going to "educate" me as to the "actual" Bible and what "actually" happened, and how it is "actually" a disjointed conglomeration of text written by men, changed, played with, handed down, adulterated and that a group of people just "picked" out and put together for their own purposes to oppress people by controlling the text and thus the Bible we know today is nothing like the Bible which was written centuries ago, am I right?

No. I actually think very highly of the Bible. But one cannot appreciate it unless you have an honest view of where it came from. I'm not an expert on the subject, but I do know the Bible didn't reach a finished form until sometime around the 4th Century. Until then, there was no organized canon of the New Testament - the state of organized Scripture was quite chaotic.

Are you seriously asking a question here which you do not know the answer to?

I don't honestly know what you think about it, so I guess I could say yes.

Are you trying to lawyer me by asking a question to which you feel you have the "absolute" answer to which supports your view which, if I am correct, is to simply discredit the Bible altogether?

I don't think it's possible to "discredit" the Bible. It stands as a finished work of literature, history, moral guidance and it is what it is. I'm just pointing out that the Words were not spoken by God, put directly on paper, and preserved unequivocably in their original form without any controversy whatsoever. I am however, a little wary of people who are so eager to claim they fully understand this complex piece of outstanding literature, particularly the more esoteric parts that are laden with heavy symbolism.

[Dead Dog]

Then I assume there was a reason you falsely claimed it was the basis of dialectic materialism and was responsible for Communism?

I did, and I stand corrected. I believe the link was actually Das Kapital (Historic Materialism) being inspired in some way by Origin of Species. Marx was a fan of Darwin..it appears the admiration was not completely mutual.

My point was not so much to tarnish Darwin, or his work, but point out the link.

I think we probably agree more than disagree on this subject:

Evolution, as a theory based on observation of nature is perfectly deductive

Like Hegel and Wagner, Darwin, (and Christ for that matter) bare no responsibility with the twisted nutters that expanded on their ideas.

Any theory describing the nature and cause of creation becomes religion..and should be treaty equally as such.

Where we may differ is whether or not certain public school curriculum "jump the shark" with evolution, and start preaching "random origins" of life. At that point I call BS, it becomes a creation mythology, requires a leap of inductive faith, and is therefore a religion of it's own.

The trouble isn't evolution, but the liberals who use it.

[Sun]

Well, well. This is too funny. After all your talk about not answering the "trolls," you are answering all of us.

Looks like we must be EFFECTIVE or you wouldn't bother with us "trolls."

OK, since you are so smart, explain THIS science, supporting Intelligent Design:
http://www.intelligentdesignnetwork.org/NCBQ3_3HarrisCalvert.pdf

Then explain THIS:

Prove that we humans evolved from an "unknown primate".

Columbus was a deeply committed Christian whose own writings prove that his desire to carry the message of Jesus Christ to faraway lands was the primary motivation of his historic voyage to the New World.

http://www.eagleforum.org/educate/columbus/columbus.shtml

Columbus' writings also showed that he knew the world was round from the Bible. Do a search and read where the Bible said the world is round.

And thank goodness, there are more people with common sense than there are scientists with closed minds, stuck in the past:

A new Gallup survey asks the question:
Which of the following statements comes closest to your views on the origin and development of human beings: Human beings have evolved over millions of years from other forms of life and God guided this process; human beings have evolved over millions of years from other forms of life, but God had no part in this process, or God created human beings in their present form exactly the way the Bible describes it?
And the poll results are:
Evolved, God guided: 31%
Evolved, God had no part: 12%
God created exactly as Bible describes it: 53%

http://corner.nationalreview.com/10/13/05 | Byron York, citing Gallup

[GOPPachyderm]

You can make these "non ad hominem" universal observations on the basis of your personal experience?

No, I am not a scientist; my degree is in another field. My interest in creation and evolution is decades old and I have read extensively on the subject ever since I discovered classes left out information that didn't fit within the evolutionary theory. It is a fascinating field of study.

[Sun]

The purpose of the "Understanding Evolution" website is to instruct teachers in how they should teach evolution, and the federal government (through the National Science Foundation) came up with $450,000 for the project.

snippet from: http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/west200404010900.asp

Just one example of government using your tax dollars.

[Sun]

I'm not against all science - I am against teaching scientific THEORIES in schools, when schools don't show both sides and allow students to decide for themselves.

Makes me wonder what the evolution people are afraid of.

What this is about, is that the ACLU types, and friends, don't even want a HINT of God.

[WildTurkey]

I have read extensively on the subject ever since I discovered classes left out information that didn't fit within the evolutionary theory.

FYI, they have it all on DVD now. $79.95.

[WildTurkey]

I am against teaching scientific THEORIES in schools, when schools don't show both sides and allow students to decide for themselves.

I guess geography should showcase the Flat-Earth society?

[GOPPachyderm]

If you think you can find all of the information on a single inexpensive DVD, you are mistaken. There are hundreds of books and articles on the topic.

Of course, dismissive humor is a very effective argument!

[WildTurkey]

If you think you can find all of the information on a single inexpensive DVD, you are mistaken.

That is why I suggested you should get the $79.95 one instead of the $29.95 one.

[WOSG]

"but in addition to some of the statements like the stuff about the war in his speech on Veteran's Day, "

In that article, Santorum criticized the media and pointed out that if the media coverd WWII the way that are covering Iraq, we'd have never won that war... The media lied about what he said, period. They said that Santorum's "mistake were made" meant he was slamming the White House, when in fact Santorum has stoutly defended the Bush administration. His REAL point that “But that’s a criticism you can make of every conflict.” He was not aiming his fire at the President, but at the biased press which only sees the downside and never the upside. And, yes, mistakes were made (mistake #1 in my book was how Bremer dealt with the former Iraqi army; water under bridge now, but we eliminated the one security force the Iraqis had and created recruits for the insurgency in one fell swoop; not our best idea.) ... but WE ARE WINNING IN IRAQ, and that is something you NEVER SEE printed in lamestream media. They NEVER admit that we are defeating the terrorists, that the elections were successful and democracy is taking root, and that Iraq is become more stable month by month. They only show more deaths, give the terrorist EXACTLY WHAT THE TERRORISTS WANT, the grisly headlines for their disgusting evil attacks, without any context nor condemnation, in effect blaming the blameless (the US military) for the acts of others (terrorists).

I've been dealing with this issue on my blog "Liberating Iraq" for 15 months. Santorum is right. If the media dealt with WWII like they do Iraq, we would never have made it past Normandy.

"I really think he is in such a panic that everything he does and says is making his situation worse. "

WRONG. The Democrats are in heavy spin mode trying to take down a fine conservative senator... and the feeblest among our own conservative ranks are falling for the bias. Santorum's comments havent changed!

"Last spring I saw a local newspaper at MD's office (Santorum is from my area) and in the A section, there were not more than 5 articles in 8 pp that were not either "trash Santorum" or "Bash Bush." I got into an argument with an old woman in the waiting room when she saw my expression over what I was reading and most in the waiting room took her side that Santorum and Bush were both lower than whale poop! I knew then that the press had been doing some heavy-duty smearing 24/7 and it had already taken hold."

Point well taken, it's taken a toll. Point being: dont fall for the Media Bias. And I dont think we should be fatalistic about it. Plenty of other Republicans have had huge deficits that they came back from.

"Apparently he thinks moving left will help him"

Again: (1) he did NOT move 'left' on Iraq, the media lied about him. (2) On ID he is merely correcting foot-n-mouth Robertson.

Yes, the press sharks are circling, let's not feed the frenzy.

Last point: "Pro-life" people will vote for the party of hillary and schumer over santorum? Scary thought if it happens, but the whole point of the campaign is to nail Casey down and not just ride on his fathers reputation. Just get Casey on the record on Alito *now* ... and then see how it shapes up.

[CarolinaGuitarman]

On page 560 of your link, I notice the following whopper:

"First, a bacterium or insect that has immunity to a toxin is still the same bacterium or insect...Nothing new has been "created". Second, these organisms did not "gain" resistance; they "lost" sensitivity. They contain mutated or damaged proteins that fail to bind or fail to take up toxic chemicals..."

This is nonsense. They DID gain resistance. They are no longer hurt by the toxin. All of their descendants will share this immunity. They are not *damaged*; they evolved. Something NEW was added.

Also on the same page they kill off William Provine by calling him the *late* William Provine. (this came out in 2003; as of the current Cornell website, he's still teaching courses for 2005-2006).


The rest is the same old same old of ID (almost 30 pages of it). If you have a particular point in there you wanted to stress, you should have been a little more direct.

"Then explain THIS:

Prove that we humans evolved from an "unknown primate". "

Science doesn't prove anything. But the evidence is overwhelming we descended directly from primates. ERV's are really all that are necessary to demonstrate that.

"Columbus' writings also showed that he knew the world was round from the Bible. Do a search and read where the Bible said the world is round."

Every educated person in the time of Columbus knew the Earth was round. They learned that from the Greeks.

nd then you add a meaningless Gallup Poll. Science isn't done with polls.

[WOSG]

Setting the record straight - Santorum was a KEYNOTE SPEAKER at the American Legion veterans day luncheon in Philly. This was an important engagement and it would have been foolish to break just to be on the podium and hear Bush speak:

http://santorum.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=PressOffice.View&ContentRecord_id=1523&CFID=27432827&CFTOKEN=40102369



Following the grant presentation, Senator Santorum delivered the keynote speech at the annual American Legion Veteran’s Day luncheon at the Union League of Philadelphia. On October 5, 2005 Joseph C. Hare, Chairman of the Armed Services Committee of the Union League and Peter Klenk, Commander of American Legion Post No. 405, invited Senator Santorum to be the keynote speaker for the event today.

“I cannot think of a better way to spend Veteran’s Day than to have the opportunity to personally thank and acknowledge the men and women of the United States Armed Forces - both past and present,” said Senator Santorum. “I encourage all of my fellow Pennsylvanians to take time today to thank our veterans and honor these heroes who have made tremendous sacrifices and dedicated their lives to protect the freedoms and liberties that we cherish today.”

“We are extremely proud to have Senator Santorum as our Veteran’s Day Keynote Speaker. The Senator's record of support for our military services and personnel is outstanding. This is a wonderful opportunity today to say ‘Thank You’ to our Vets, while sharing with the Senator our thoughts and concerns about the current state of the military services,” said Rear Admiral Joseph C. Hare, Chairman of the Union League's Armed Services Committee. “We are especially pleased to be hosting a number of members of the 10th Mountain Division, and this event is a special opportunity for these veterans to share some time and conversation with one of our key leaders in Washington.”

[WOSG]

Then you should like what this wise man has to say of the matter:

"For all these reasons, Darwin’s theory of evolution should not be taught as absolute fact in the science classroom. Instead, it should be taught as the leading and dominant scientific theory explaining the origin of species, but also as a theory subject to significant limitations, failed predictions, and important criticisms. We should encourage schools to teach better science and to teach more about evolution, including the gaps and controversies surrounding evolution. We should not be afraid to teach children what we know and what we have not yet discovered in science, and we should certainly not deny our children the truth about controversies surrounding science. By teaching the controversy, we remain true to science and yet sensitive to the ideas and interests of many parents and children."

Guess who said it?

[ml1954]

How do you know Bible is the word of God?