Posted on 10/11/2005 5:23:40 PM PDT by wagglebee
A practicing witch who sought to have her prayers heard at government meetings in a Richmond, Va., suburb had no magic before the U.S. Supreme Court.
Justices rejected an appeal by Cyndi Simpson, a Wiccan priestess and member of the Broom Riders Association, who wanted to offer a generalized prayer to the "creator of the universe" in Chesterfield County, Va.
"I wasn't going to talk about the goddess," Simpson said previous to today's decision. "I was going to call the elements, maybe offer up an invocation to the highest being."
Simpson had argued that Christians and members of other faiths were allowed to provide invocations before county meetings, but she was being excluded because of her pagan, polytheistic beliefs.
Wicca is regarded as a natural religion, "grounded in the earth." Followers of its many different forms generally believe all living things, as well as stars, planets and rocks, have a spirit.
American Civil Liberties Union lawyer Rebecca Glenberg said the county "issues invitations to deliver prayers to all Christian, Muslim and Jewish religious leaders in the country. It refuses to issue invitations to Native Americans, Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs, Wiccans or members of any other religion."
Some 235 congregations, the bulk of which are Christian, were on the county's approved list in 2003. The Islamic Center of Virginia is also on the list, and its imams have been involved in giving prayers occasionally.
In a letter of explanation to Simpson, County Attorney Steven L. Micas said, "Chesterfield's nonsectarian invocations are traditionally made to a divinity that is consistent with the Judeo-Christian tradition."
With help from the ACLU, which ironically often opposes most expressions of prayer at government events, Simpson sued and initially won before a federal court judge who ruled the county board violated Simpson's constitutional right of equal and free expression of her religious beliefs.
But at the 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, she lost when jurists found Chesterfield County had amended its policy and directed clerics to avoid any mention of Jesus Christ.
The legal precedent covering most government assemblies is the 1983 Supreme Court case of Marsh v. Chambers, where justices noted:
In light of the unambiguous and unbroken history of more than 200 years, there can be no doubt that the practice of opening legislative sessions with prayer has become part of the fabric of our society. To invoke Divine guidance on a public body entrusted with making the laws is not, in these circumstances, an "establishment" of religion or a step toward establishment; it is simply a tolerable acknowledgment of beliefs widely held among the people of this country. As Justice Douglas observed, "[w]e are a religious people whose institutions presuppose a Supreme Being."
p.s. I just realized, I would be a dangerous man if I could type and not have to spend 5 minutes correcting all of the errors on even short messages like this one. It never fails when I type the, it always comes out teh and I have to redo. Oh well. 80)
**Broom Riders Association**
Is Hillary a member?
Ummm, I'll have to wait for daylight and check in the trunk of my car, but I think it's sort of a purple...
It never fails when I type the, it always comes out teh
Would you be left-handed per-chance?
As for my handedness, I'm a righty, but I sometimes think I'm dumbidextrous (stupid hands).
Actually, it's more of a blotch of diesel-soot laden motor oil, but that's close... (you know, that stuff is REALLY hard to get out of your skin... almost makes me want to pay someone to change my oil.)But only almost...
I'm dumbidextrous
Don't know how that fits in the statistics. Lefties typically type teh for the more often. Not sure why.. (My excuse is that I was traumatized by my first grade teacher who tried to force me to write wrong, er, right handed... )
Regarded by whom?
I know a few wiccans; moonbats all.
Well, she's a member of "Broom Riders Association". I bet that if she flew her broom right into the Supreme Court chamber, such a practical demonstration would have strengthened her cause mightily. Placing a hex on the Court bailiff (like turning him into, say, a woodpecker) would do, too.
"In this country we have freedom of religion. It isn't right for the government to tell her she isn't allowed to pray at these meetings, especially when others are allowed to. I hope you'll rethink your position on this."
Perhaps you should rethink your own position. It was not the Federal government which prevented her from conducting a prayer, it was the local government. Here is what the First Amendment to the US Constitution says (with emphasis added):
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
This amendment FORBIDS CONGRESS from ESTABLISHING a religion. The obvious intent, which can be ascertained from a study of historical records and events, was and is to prevent a federally mandated national religion. However, municipalities and states are not expressly forbidden to establish an official state or local religion, nor is this even implied (except possibly by the tenth amendment).
This amendment also FORBIDS CONGRESS from PROHIBITING the FREE EXERCISE of religion. The obvious intent here is to prevent federal interference with and/or harassment of any religion, including worship and prayer. Again, municipalities and states are not expressly forbidden from such interference, but are more probably (and properly) constrained by the tenth amendment.
Now, in this case, the 'witch' is free to practice her religion and pray as she sees fit. However, she is not free to impose her religion or views on others or on the local government. As pointed out above, the local government may be entitled to endorse or even establish a particular religion, and that would be easier to overturn or reverse at a local level than a national one. If a local government or organization chooses to have a prayer (from any religion) at an official function, it is not prohibited by the Constitution. The locals can decide for themselves as to whether or not to have a prayer and the form and content of same.
A major part of this discussion centers on the definition of an establishment of religion. Merely having or professing a set of beliefs or saying a prayer DOES NOT ESTABLISH A RELIGION. Here is the definition of establish from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary:
Main Entry: es·tab·lish
Pronunciation: is-'ta-blish
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: Middle English establissen, from Middle French establiss-, stem of establir, from Latin stabilire, from stabilis stable
1 : to institute (as a law) permanently by enactment or agreement
2 obsolete : SETTLE 7
3 a : to make firm or stable b : to introduce and cause to grow and multiply <establish grass on pasturelands>
4 a : to bring into existence : FOUND <established a republic> b : BRING ABOUT, EFFECT <established friendly relations>
5 a : to put on a firm basis : SET UP <establish his son in business> b : to put into a favorable position c : to gain full recognition or acceptance of <the role established her as a star>
6 : to make (a church) a national or state institution
7 : to put beyond doubt : PROVE <established my innocence>
Prayer in school, "...One Nation Under God...", "In God We Trust", DO NOT ESTABLISH A RELIGION. There are no theological doctrines established, no places of worship built, no religious leaders chosen, no religious laws or rules given, no principles or organization or worship professed. Let me say it one more time: saying a prayer DOES NOT ESTABLISH A RELIGION. Believing in God or a Supreme Being DOES NOT ESTABLISH A RELIGION.
However, the liberal left wish to establish Atheism as our national religion, this undermining our values and morals by reducing us to mere animals with no more rights, morals, or value than a steak dinner. Conscience and morality only come from a belief in right and wrong, which are learned from values taught by various religions. If, as they claim, there is no God, then the 'law of the jungle' prevails and only the strong and intelligent will survive. Morality, conscience, and laws are of no consequence and only weaken the herd. This is a concept I totally reject.
Every society, in order to continue its existence and grow, must have an underlying belief system which provides a moral compass for guiding its citizens. Whenever that compass is broken or lacking, corruption and decay is inevitable.
"Some things are true and some things are false; to pretend things are equally true and false is to dishonor the true and wrongfully honor the false."
That's very true.
bttt
"Followers of its many different forms generally believe all living things, as well as stars, planets and rocks, have a spirit."
The Lord knows every time a bird falls from the sky. While our hairs are numbered, He does love the things He created. Of course, we'd go insane trying not to harm every living lice we run across, or insects we might step on, or roach infestations, or for that matter, leftist infestations in government-- speaking of roaches.
Excellent post!
"Hillary must be extremely disappointed in this ruling. Her broom will have to stay in the 'closet' for at least a bit longer."
She's getting frequent flyer miles. Don't worry.
But seriously, I think that free exercize of religion is a Constitutional right. I do not agree with Wiccans. They get into dangerous territory with ouiji boards and other forms of necromancy. But that aside, our rights and their rights are the same. Kicking her Constitutional rights into the trash bin is falling into the very trap she probably intended. Perhaps the government need not invite her, but if she wants to pray to insects out on government property, that is, best I can tell, her right.
Thank You.
Well said. There is only one Truth. The sky is blue. I once heard Schumer [Putzhead] arguing that the sky could arguably be called pink, because you might see a pink sky now and then. He was trying to justify Clinton's definition of oral-whatever. The sky is blue. That is the One Truth. Of course, turning to the Dark Side, a vampire might say that the sky is dark. That is true at night. [Schumer should have thought like a vampire instead of a weasal.]
And the One Truth is that our laws are founded on the Constitution: free exercize of religion, to worship God as we so choose. [Not to worship Satan BTW. States are within their rights to ban satanism.] So I'm reluctant to infringe that right without good reason, even for a wacko.
I thought...
you wuz...
a FROG!
Gingrich: is that YOU?
I'll have mine medium rare, please.
But...
The testimony of the THREE swore to the validity of them, as well as the testimony of the EIGHT as well!!!!
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