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Professor, teachers to testify in intelligent-design trial [Dover, PA, 05 Oct]
Times Leader ^ | 05 October 2005 | MARTHA RAFFAELE

Posted on 10/05/2005 3:53:39 AM PDT by PatrickHenry

HARRISBURG, Pa. - A philosophy professor and two science teachers were expected to testify Wednesday in a landmark trial over a school board's decision to include a reference to "intelligent design" in its biology curriculum.

Barbara Forrest, a philosophy professor at Southeastern Louisiana University, is being called as an expert witness on behalf of eight families who are trying to have intelligent design removed from the Dover Area School District's biology curriculum. The families contend that it effectively promotes the Bible's view of creation, violating the constitutional separation of church and state.

Forrest's testimony was expected to address what opponents allege is the religious nature of intelligent design, as well as the history and development of the concept, according to court papers filed by the plaintiffs before the trial.

U.S. District Judge John E. Jones III was also expected to hear testimony from Bertha Spahr, chairman of Dover High School's science department, and biology teacher Jennifer Miller.

Under the policy approved by Dover's school board in October 2004, students must hear a brief statement about intelligent design before classes on evolution. It says Charles Darwin's theory is "not a fact," has inexplicable "gaps," and refers students to an intelligent-design textbook for more information.

Intelligent-design supporters argue that life on Earth was the product of an unidentified intelligent force, and that natural selection cannot fully explain the origin of life or the emergence of highly complex life forms.

The plaintiffs are represented by a team put together by the American Civil Liberties Union and Americans United for Separation of Church and State. The school district is being defended by the Thomas More Law Center, a public-interest law firm based in Ann Arbor, Mich., that says its mission is to defend the religious freedom of Christians.

The trial began Sept. 26 and is expected to last as long as five weeks.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Miscellaneous; Philosophy; US: Pennsylvania
KEYWORDS: cnim; crevolist; dover; evolution
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To: connectthedots
Evolutionists have never established any proof that any species has been trnasformed into another.

Actually, I think the ERV DNA insertions (credit: Ichneumon) common between many apes and humans do in fact prove that a pre-human/pre-ape species evolved into apes and humans. They are the smoking gun of evolution.

I think the ERV proof of species transition into apes and humans is equal to many DNA "proofs" accepted every day by juries. The morphological evidence gathered over the last two centuries is icing on the cake.

201 posted on 10/05/2005 12:30:40 PM PDT by narby
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To: longshadow
I got my primes confused. But note my jazzy new tagline.
202 posted on 10/05/2005 12:32:37 PM PDT by PatrickHenry ( I won't respond to a troll, crackpot, half-wit, or incurable ignoramus.)
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To: js1138
Here's a ZIP-file (~3Mb) with both a large (1943x1941) PSD and the original AI. I've included both the bitmapped and vectorized Darwin in the pictures, so you'll just have to hide the layer you don't want to use. Vector-Darwin is kinda ugly as the software I used didn't really like the picture, but might be usable anyway (certainly scales better at high resolutions).
203 posted on 10/05/2005 12:38:28 PM PDT by anguish (while science catches up.... mysticism!)
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To: Stultis
... You also implicitly posit a wholesale recreation of the world, or at least of living things, that the Bible says nothing about. For if there were indeed not death or decay before the fall of man then there would be no cell death either. And yet cell death is absolutely necessary to the functioning of all animals, and to their proper development. (When cells don't die as they should, we call that "cancer".)

Animals would have to work in such a completely and fundamentally different fashion that ...

Whoa, I never thought of that! Ironically, if the creationist responds that "no death before the Fall" only applies to whole organisms, then they're implicitly admitting that the whole person is a metaphysically different entity than our component parts. But this is a contradiction for creationists: They're constantly harping on philosophical naturalism because if we think that a mind is the work-product of the physical brain, then our "minds" are simply patterns of nonliving "mental atoms", so we can't really believe in or trust any thoughts our minds create, etc.

Anti-naturalism depends on the fallacy of composition to survive. But if the fallacy of composition is allowed, then whatever happens to the whole (organism) must also apply to the parts (individual cells). Hence, no cell death before the Fall.

Turkish taffy logic. :-)

204 posted on 10/05/2005 12:39:26 PM PDT by jennyp (WHAT I'M READING NOW: my sterling prose)
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To: connectthedots

Philosophy of science...never heard of it, eh? Seek out a book, I believe it is a collection of essays, entitled "Mind/Body Identity Theory".

I will confess first the first time here at FR that I was, in fact, a philosophy major in college (hey it was the '70's), and seeking a degree with honors, wrote my honors thesis on just that topic.

Awaiting the scorn.......


205 posted on 10/05/2005 12:41:28 PM PDT by dmz
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To: connectthedots
[So you falsely assume, anyway. Anyone who has bothered to actually study the subject (which leaves out the IDers) is familiar with various natural processes which bring about the increase of complexity without the intervention of "intelligent design".]

Evolutionists have never established any proof that any species has been trnasformed into another. They can only offer 'possibilities'.

Nice non sequitur. Care to actually address what I wrote?

Now as for what *you* wrote:

Evolutionists have never established any proof

Of course not, since science does not deal in 'proofs'. Before you attempt to critique science, please learn the most basic things about it first. Thanks, we'd appreciate it.

There's no "proof" of Relativity, gravity, or that atoms exist, either. There's just overwhelming evidence which supports those theories, just as there is for evolution. But any one of them could conceivably be discovered to be mistaken in some large or small manner via subsequent discoveries, just as Newtonian physics was found to be incomplete (albeit not entirely "wrong") with the discoveries of Relativity and Quantum Physics. If it's "proof" you're demanding, then you're being naive and unrealistic, because there are no proofs in the real world. Epistemology doesn't work that way.

Reality doesn't provide any certainties. For those people who insist upon certainties because they're frightened of the sliver of uncertainty which is present in every real-world conclusion, well, there's always the false "certainty" which can be achieved by firmly believing whatever they want to believe, then utterly refusing to admit the possibility that they might be mistaken, and refusing to examine any evidence that might indicate their beliefs could be incorrect.

Evolutionists have never established any proof that any species has been trnasformed into another.

"Proof"? No. Overwhelming evidence for which there is no other workable explanation, and observations of the process in action? Yes.

They can only offer 'possibilities'.

Wrong again. There is a vast range of support between the extremes of "mere possibility" and "proof". But I suppose such simplistic black-and-white categories, which blot out the existence of levels of demonstration and evidence which are far beyond "mere possibility" and the next best thing to "proof", helps you to get by in a world that is more complex than you'd like to acknowledge.

If that brings you comfort, then I'm glad for you, but don't try to teach such crippled worldviews to schoolchildren as "science". And don't presume that they'd be better off fitted with a pair of your own blinders.

206 posted on 10/05/2005 12:41:48 PM PDT by Ichneumon
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To: microgood
Have you tried Kolmogorov probability?

Seriously, if you take a look at just about any introductory critical thinking text book you will find statistical methods for testing conclusions. You might try: 'Creative and Critical Thinking' by Moore, McCann and McCann, 1985 - Ch 7 through 14.
207 posted on 10/05/2005 12:46:56 PM PDT by b_sharp (Science adjusts theories to fit evidence, creationism distorts evidence to fit the Bible.)
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To: microgood
I suspect this is an opinion and not a calculation.

Of course it is.

It's an informed opinion, however.

208 posted on 10/05/2005 12:58:20 PM PDT by Right Wing Professor
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To: Ichneumon

It occurs to me that one of the reasons that creationism and ID gain a lot of public support is that they do not require close examination of much of anything.

Not everyone is willing to learn enough about science to have an understanding of it. We see that in all of these threads when people are unwilling to even discuss the TOE in terms of its own ideas.

It's very comforting, I suppose, to accept a simple account, such as the Biblical account, of creation. One needn't think a great deal about it. It can all be told in a few hundred words, and that's it.

It can be very uncomfortable for some folks to have a far more complex theory to deal with. It's confusing. So, when a religious leader states boldly that the Genesis account is how it happened and that's an end to it, he'll naturally get followers who will accept those statements because they are easily digestible and easy to wrap one's mind around.

All else, then, is foolishness, if you accept that account as the whole truth. For many folks, that's the end of it. For others, though, it becomes a contentious issue, since it's so apparent that the simple Genesis account is not accepted by most folks. So, in the spirit of converting one's fellow humans to one's own religious beliefs, it becomes a campaign to discredit the more complex theory.

That's what I see here, and part of my evidence is the paucity of the creationism argument. I see little original thought being expressed by the creationist side, and much outright plagiarism from one website or another. No real thought goes into the arguments, just a repetition of the same statements over and over again...all lifted from Answers in Genesis or one of the other creationism sites.

It's depressing. It's also humorous. But it's mostly depressing.


209 posted on 10/05/2005 1:01:25 PM PDT by MineralMan (godless atheist)
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To: newsgatherer; CarolinaGuitarman; shuckmaster; MineralMan; Coyoteman; blowfish
But, since I am so unlearned, please be so kind as to start with a definition of evolution if you can.

Have you ever posted to FreeRepublic under the now-banned screen name of "Phaedrus"?

210 posted on 10/05/2005 1:02:04 PM PDT by Ichneumon
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To: All
Current news from the trial, source: Witness: 'Intelligent Design' Used in Book. Excerpt:

Early drafts of a student biology text contained references to creationism before they were replaced with the term "intelligent design," a witness testified Wednesday in a landmark trial over a school system's use of the book.

Drafts of the textbook, "Of Pandas and People," written in 1987 were revised after the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in June of that year that states could not require schools to balance evolution with creationism in the classroom, said Barbara Forrest, a philosophy professor at Southeastern Louisiana University.

211 posted on 10/05/2005 1:03:31 PM PDT by PatrickHenry ( I won't respond to a troll, crackpot, half-wit, or incurable ignoramus.)
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To: Ichneumon

"Have you ever posted to FreeRepublic under the now-banned screen name of "Phaedrus"?"

Not me, certainly. I've been MineralMan since I signed up.


212 posted on 10/05/2005 1:03:38 PM PDT by MineralMan (godless atheist)
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To: MineralMan
Not me, certainly. I've been MineralMan since I signed up.

LOL! I wasn't asking *you*, silly.

213 posted on 10/05/2005 1:04:39 PM PDT by Ichneumon
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To: PatrickHenry

Yup. That book's drafts and the religious statements made by some school board members during the discussions about adopting this stuff, are the core of the case.

This is why the plaintiffs will win and the board will lose. Since it is clear that a religious motivation WAS involved, the board will not prevail.

That's why so many creationist and ID folks have dropped out of this case. They know it's a losing proposition.


214 posted on 10/05/2005 1:07:22 PM PDT by MineralMan (godless atheist)
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To: b_sharp
"All the evidence was washed away by the flood."

Noah's Oak was said to be built out of wood. So some evidence floated away.


There is another carbon dating method called Dendrochronology.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dendrochronology
Excerpts:
"Dendrochronology or tree-ring dating is the method of scientific dating based on the analysis of tree ring patterns"
...
"Fully anchored chronologies which extend back more than 10000 years exist for river oak trees from South Germany (from the Main and Rhine rivers). A fully anchored chronology which extends back 8500 years exists for the bristlecone pine in the southwest US (White Mountains of California)."

More than 10,000 years back!

By the way, Noah just carried animals. What happened to all the plants?
215 posted on 10/05/2005 1:07:33 PM PDT by MHalblaub (Tell me in four more years (No, I did not vote for Kerry))
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To: Ichneumon

Couldn't resist.


216 posted on 10/05/2005 1:08:30 PM PDT by MineralMan (godless atheist)
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To: PatrickHenry; connectthedots
Drafts of the textbook, "Of Pandas and People," written in 1987 were revised after the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in June of that year that states could not require schools to balance evolution with creationism in the classroom, said Barbara Forrest, a philosophy professor at Southeastern Louisiana University.

Even after the "revisions", the "ID textbook", "Of Pandas and People" contains enormous flaws, omissions, and falsehoods. From this webpage comes the following critique, which I agree with 100%:

Of Pandas and People
A Brief Critique

Of Pandas and People, which pretends to be an open, objective examination of the pros and cons of evolutionary biology, is actually nothing of the sort. It is, instead, a collection of half-truths, distortions, and outright falsehoods that attempts to misrepresent biology and mislead students as to the scientific status of evolutionary biology.

A complete critique of the many problems with Pandas would take almost as many pages as the book itself, but here are a few points of special concern:

The Age of the Earth

Pandas claims to be a book that seeks to examine the timeless question of biological origins. A truly scientific attempt to do exactly this would begin by examining the age of the earth and reviewing the scientific techniques used by geologists to determine the ages of rocks and fossils. Curiously, Pandas does nothing of the sort. In fact, not a word can be found anywhere in Pandas regarding the age of the earth or geological ages recognized by earth scientists. Ignoring the age of the earth while attempting to teach students natural history makes about as much sense as trying to teach American history without telling students that the American revolution began in 1775, which is to say, no sense at all.

Why does Pandas make this striking omission? Its authors have never been willing to say why they ignore such a crucial part of earth history, but I suspect that the answer is simple. If they were to bring authentic scientific evidence regarding earth history into play, it would immediately become clear to readers that the ages of rocks and fossil support, in dramatic fashion, the evolutionary history of life that geologists have recognized for many decades. Because this important mass of scientific evidence is at odds with their anti-evolutionary thesis, they choose to ignore it. They are free to do this, of course, but students who might attempt to use Pandas as a scientific textbook will be rightly baffled by its attempts to teach natural history without a time scale, and will surely ask their teachers what science can tell us about the geologic time scale. Pandas, for reasons of its own, chooses to duck this most basic question because it does not like the answer that science provides.

 

The Fossil Record

Pandas seriously misrepresents the nature of the fossil record. For example, on pages 99-100 the authors of Pandas have written:

"Intelligent design means that various forms of life began abruptly through an intelligent agency, with their distinctive features already intact - fish with fins and scales, birds with feathers, beaks, and wings, etc. Some scientists have arrived at this view since fossil forms first appear in the rock record with their distinctive features intact, rather than gradually developing. "

Actually, a close examination of the fossil record supplies scores of examples that show the gradual appearance of a wide variety of physical adaptations, including, for example, the vertebrate limb. Pandas wishes to claim that abrupt appearances of critical features (which might be taken to support design) characterize the fossil record. Unfortunately, this contention does not square with the facts. The earliest known fish, for example, were quite different from the fish we recognize today. The earliest fossil forms lacked many of the characteristics possessed by fish today, including jaws, paired limbs and bony internal skeletons, and yet Pandas wishes to tell students that fish (and all fossil forms) appear in the fossil record "with their distinctive features intact."

To take another example, strong fossil evidence indicates that the first land vertebrates evolved from lobe-finned fish. One of the very first land vertebrates, a species known Acanthostega gunnari, illustrates the point. Acanthostega, although clearly a land-dwelling animals, retained an unmistakable sign of its aquatic ancestry: internal gills. No other amphibian possesses internal gills, and the gills preserved in key Acanthostega fossils make it clear that Acanthostega could breathe with its gills underwater, just like a fish, and could also breathe on land, using lungs. In other words, it was a true "transitional form." This first amphibian-like tetrapod was, as evolution would have predicted, more fish-like than any tetrapod to follow. As the discoverers of one of the most detailed Acanthostega fossils wrote: "Retention of fish-like internal gills by a tetrapod blurs the traditional distinction between tetrapods and fishes." (MI Coates & JA Clack (1991) "Fish-like gills and breathing in the earliest known tetrapod." Nature 352: 234-236.).

Pandas implies that fossils such as these have never been discovered.

More to the point, in 1998 paleontologists Edward B. Daeschler and Neil Shubin discovered a fossilized fin so well-preserved that its soft parts could be seen outside its underlying bony skeleton. The fin contained eight well-defined, recognizable digits. Incredibly, this fish had a fin with fingers, eight in number, just like the digits of Acanthostega. In other words, the limbs of land vertebrates did not appear suddenly (as if designed). They began to appear gradually, in the ancestors of land vertebrates, as if they evolved. (See: "Fish with Fingers?" Nature 391: 133 [1997]). If Pandas' goal was to engage students with authentic data, rather than to raise doubts and questions in the minds of its readers, it would surely present and discuss these fossil forms. Instead, it offers students a generalization that such fossils do not exist. Unfortunately, that generalization is wrong.

 

More Misrepresentations of the Fossil Record

On Page 95 of Pandas, Figure 4-2 attempts shows the abrupt appearance of most phyla in the Cambrian Period of geological history. Curiously, the diagram is a schematic, not a genuine diagram in which the individual phyla would be labeled and identified. Why not show the actual phyla and their names? I believe the reason is very simple. If the phyla were all labeled, the authors would not be able to make the suggestion that they do now, which is that most important groups of organisms alive today can trace their origins to this period, nor would they be able to pretend that all multicellular animal life first appeared in the Cambrian. In fact, if the dominant forms of plant and animal life on land were included in such a diagram (flowering plants and insects, respectively), students would learn that these organisms appeared hundreds of millions of years after the time shown in the graph. Furthermore, all of the great unicellular phyla (found in the kingdoms Eubacteria, Archaebacteria, and Protista) precede the Cambrian by hundreds of millions of years. And finally, the animals of the Cambrian were preceded by abundant soft-bodied animals known as Ediacaran fauna, which date at least a hundred million of years back into the Precambrian. Unfortunately, the readers of Pandas will never learn these facts because the authors are so intent on pretending that all major groups of organisms originated at just one period of time. And that is simply not true.

 

 

Pandas Ignores the Issue of Extinction

Pandas shows a remarkable unwillingness to address the obvious questions raised by its own theories. For example, on page 99 (Figure 4-4) a graph showing a "face value" interpretation of the fossil record is presented. It looks something like this:

What question would any inquisitive 9th-grader ask of this graph after being instructed in "intelligent design" theory? Just this: If all organisms are intelligently designed, what are the forces that seem always to intervene and drive these organisms to extinction? Any theory that claims to see intelligence in these designs that have mysteriously appeared in living organisms over millions of years must also explain why these designs seem to fail nearly every time. Evolution, of course, can explain extinction quite easily. In fact, extinction is a major evolutionary mechanism. But Pandas avoids this embarrassing problem. Its authors cannot explain extinction, and therefore they short-change their student readers by stepping around the question.

 

 

The Predictions Made in Pandas are Dramatically Incorrect

Pandas' predictions about future discoveries of fossils are wrong. To be sure, the text makes very few statements that could be subjected to scientific testing. However, when it does make a prediction, it fails miserably. Consider this statement from Pages 101-102:

 

Yes, evolution predicts that there should have been transitional forms linking swimming mammals with land mammals. And their absence, Pandas argues, is good evidence that evolution is wrong. Well, guess what? In the past 10 years not one, not two, but three true intermediate forms have been discovered. Up until 1986, the oldest known fossil whale had been Basilosaurus, dating to about 40 million years before present (a sketch of Basilosaurus is shown in Pandas). However, fossil-hunters have now found 3 intermediates that link Basilosaurus to land-dwelling ancestors. They are:

Pakicetus inachus - 52 myr.

Ambulocetus natans 50 myr.

Rodhocetus kasrani 46 myr.

The actual fossil forms were described in a 1994 article in the journal Science (JGM Thewissen, ST Hussain, M Arif (1994) "Fossil evidence for the origin of aquatic locomotion in archaeocete whales." Science 263: 210-212.). A less technical account of these intermediate forms and their importance for understanding cetacean evolution was written by Stephen Jay Gould in Natural History magazine ("Hooking Leviathan By Its Past," Natural History (April 1994), p. 12).

Pandas, in teaching students that such intermediate forms would, indeed, could never be found, compounds its earlier misrepresentations of fossil history with an outright falsehood, a misperception of reality which has no place in authentic scientific education.

 

 

Pandas mi srepresents the Molecular Evidence for Evolution

Pandas' entire Chapter 6 (on Biochemical similarities) is based on an incorrect representation of evolutionary theory. I don't know if it was done intentionally or out of simple misunderstanding, but either way, I would argue that the errors in this chapter as reason alone to disqualify the book for use in the science classroom.

Basically, the chapter states again and again that evolution predicts that amino acid sequences of key proteins (like cytochrome c) should be arranged in a linear sequence. For example, if one takes the sequences of, say, a worm, a frog, and a human, the frog sequence should be closer to the worm than the human sequence is. That is the claim that Pandas makes repeatedly as a "prediction" of evolutionary theory. However it is simply not true that any evolutionary biologist has ever made such a prediction (significantly, Pandas does not cite any references for its claims). Pandas then examines the data and shows that the frog and human sequences are equally distant from that of the worm. That, it argues, is contrary to the evolutionary prediction.

 

This is simply not true. I honestly do not know if the authors of Pandas intentionally misrepresented evolutionary predictions or if they simply did not understand them. However, the real story is that the fossil record clearly shows that the entire vertebrate group (including frogs and people) split off from the invertebrates (including worms) many hundreds of millions of years ago. Therefore, the protein sequences of every animal in that group should be equidistant from any single invertebrate. And that is exactly what the experimental data show, as the authors of Pandasought to know.

The simple fact is that this chapter misrepresents evolutionary predictions on molecular sequences, and thereby covers up the fact that the sequences stand in stunning agreement with evolution. I cannot even imagine a greater misrepresentation of fundamental data to support an incorrect conclusion.

 

Summary

I could go on to document further misrepresentations of scientific fact and theory in Of Pandas and People. However, my criticisms of this text are not unique. In fact, the many errors and misleading statements in this text were immediately recognized almost from its first publication by a variety of scientists and educators. Reviews describing the errors and misrepresentations in Pandas have appeared in many publications, including Scientific American (July 1995, Science and the Citizen, "Darwin Denied").

Science is an open enterprise, and scientific inquiry thrives precisely because no scientific theory or idea is ever immune from criticism, examination, or testing in the crucibles of experiment and observation. When I first opened the pages of Pandas and read the fine words presented by its authors in the name of free and open inquiry, I expected a text that might genuinely challenge students to examine the assumptions of what they had learned and evaluate scientific theory in an objective manner. To say that I was disappointed is to put it mildly. What I found instead was a document that contrived not to teach, but to mislead.

Pandas mis-states evolutionary theory, skims over the enormous wealth of the fossil record, and ignores the sophistication of radiometric dating, How sad it would be, given the need to improve the content and rigor of science instruction in this country, for this book to be offered as part of the educational solution. There is a great deal that we do not know about the origin of life on this planet, but that does not mean that science is obliged to pretend that it knows nothing, or to engage in a kind of scientific relativism, pretending that all speculations about the origin of our species are equally correct. The most compelling reason to keep this book out of the biology classroom is that it is bad science, pure and simple.

Science education today faces many challenges. Our teachers must deal with an ever-changing landscape of scientific advance and technological innovation that continually changes the ground upon which they educate their students. Biology education, in particular, will be the key for many of our students as they attempt to prepare themselves for the challenges of the next century, and therefore it is especially important that teachers be supported, not hindered, in their attempts to educate students in the life sciences. The many errors and misrepresentations that inhabit the pages in Of Pandas and People will, quite honestly, serve to hinder teachers as they attempt to cover the stunning range and diversity of contemporary biology. I believe it is best not to burden science faculty with the needless task of overcoming the many errors and misconceptions written into this book.

 

Kenneth R. Miller
Professor of Biology
Brown University
Providence, Rhode Island 02912

I'd like to know whether our resident "IDers" support the use of this deeply dishonest book in classrooms.
217 posted on 10/05/2005 1:08:32 PM PDT by Ichneumon
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To: js1138

Ah, but without evolution cats are not related to lions!

Do you realize that your post might be quoted in all seriousness by "I can't remember where I read it but even scientists agree..."

You may someday share honors with the Flying Spaghetti Monster.


218 posted on 10/05/2005 1:08:37 PM PDT by From many - one.
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To: MHalblaub

"By the way, Noah just carried animals. What happened to all the plants?"

Hmmm...let's see...

Ah! Throught the miracle of microevolution, the land plants evolved into aquatic plants within minutes of being flooded. Then, when the flood receded, they evolved back into land plants, in plenty of time for the animals to eat them. But, you see, that was micro-evolution, and that's OK. It happens much faster than macro-evolution, and they were still plants, so they were the same "kind." Yeah...that's the ticket.

There is an explanation for everything...just ask...

Chapter and verse cited on request...


219 posted on 10/05/2005 1:11:53 PM PDT by MineralMan (godless atheist)
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To: js1138
And your computer will have Windows ME installed, and a dial-up AOL connection

Any version of Windows would be hell for me.

220 posted on 10/05/2005 1:13:09 PM PDT by Right Wing Professor (...better to use Mac OS 7.6.1 in Hell, than Windows XP in Heaven.)
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