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Professor, teachers to testify in intelligent-design trial [Dover, PA, 05 Oct]
Times Leader ^ | 05 October 2005 | MARTHA RAFFAELE

Posted on 10/05/2005 3:53:39 AM PDT by PatrickHenry

HARRISBURG, Pa. - A philosophy professor and two science teachers were expected to testify Wednesday in a landmark trial over a school board's decision to include a reference to "intelligent design" in its biology curriculum.

Barbara Forrest, a philosophy professor at Southeastern Louisiana University, is being called as an expert witness on behalf of eight families who are trying to have intelligent design removed from the Dover Area School District's biology curriculum. The families contend that it effectively promotes the Bible's view of creation, violating the constitutional separation of church and state.

Forrest's testimony was expected to address what opponents allege is the religious nature of intelligent design, as well as the history and development of the concept, according to court papers filed by the plaintiffs before the trial.

U.S. District Judge John E. Jones III was also expected to hear testimony from Bertha Spahr, chairman of Dover High School's science department, and biology teacher Jennifer Miller.

Under the policy approved by Dover's school board in October 2004, students must hear a brief statement about intelligent design before classes on evolution. It says Charles Darwin's theory is "not a fact," has inexplicable "gaps," and refers students to an intelligent-design textbook for more information.

Intelligent-design supporters argue that life on Earth was the product of an unidentified intelligent force, and that natural selection cannot fully explain the origin of life or the emergence of highly complex life forms.

The plaintiffs are represented by a team put together by the American Civil Liberties Union and Americans United for Separation of Church and State. The school district is being defended by the Thomas More Law Center, a public-interest law firm based in Ann Arbor, Mich., that says its mission is to defend the religious freedom of Christians.

The trial began Sept. 26 and is expected to last as long as five weeks.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Miscellaneous; Philosophy; US: Pennsylvania
KEYWORDS: cnim; crevolist; dover; evolution
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To: connectthedots
I think my post #95 addresses you questions.

Your #95 says there is no positive evidence for ID. I agree.

And since evolution has not been falsified (only critiqued) by anti-evolutionists, and there is no evidence of a designer, then evolution is the best explanation for the species and it stands.

181 posted on 10/05/2005 12:04:44 PM PDT by narby
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To: narby

"The problem is that the same church where I was taught that Genesis and evolution did not conflict now teaches that it does."

Yes...that has happened, too. I think the following analysis is spot on. We appear to be moving toward a society split in two, primarily on an educational basis, with regard to this topic.


182 posted on 10/05/2005 12:04:57 PM PDT by MineralMan (godless atheist)
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To: MHalblaub

Sorry. I neglected to include the sarcasm switch. Please read my other remarks.


183 posted on 10/05/2005 12:06:22 PM PDT by MineralMan (godless atheist)
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To: connectthedots
"IMO, estimates about the age of the earth are largely speculative.

Thankfully, the age of the earth, as measured by a number of methods, is not subject to your opinion. No errors possible would change the 4.5by age to 7000 years.

"ID concludes, not assumes, that such complexity can only come via intelligent design.

ID admits that complexity can can be produced by nature but nature cannot produce 'specified' complexity. Specifically, no ID proponent - not just specific DI ID proponents - has specified how to differentiate specified complexity from unspecified complexity. How can they conclude anything from such a specifically false premise?

184 posted on 10/05/2005 12:08:27 PM PDT by b_sharp (Science adjusts theories to fit evidence, creationism distorts evidence to fit the Bible.)
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To: anguish

I have Illustrator. But a large psd would be nice.


185 posted on 10/05/2005 12:10:17 PM PDT by js1138 (Great is the power of steady misrepresentation.)
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To: connectthedots
Read the link in post #17. It's primarily speculation, with lost of 'probablies' and 'possibles'. 'Evidence' that is based on speculation is not real evidence.

Just out of curiosity, could you tell me whether even you believe this lame excuse for ignoring the vast amount of NON-speculatory evidence in that link (and in the vast amounts of primary literature it cites)? Do you *honestly* think that a little bit of speculation in a huge article justifies your ignoring absolutely everything else in it?

In short, are you really as confused and irrational as you appear, or are you just making wildly dishonest excuses for ignoring the actual real-world evidence in the hopes that someone might actually fall for it?

This is not a rhetorical question. Please respond.

186 posted on 10/05/2005 12:11:28 PM PDT by Ichneumon
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To: Stultis

Since some of this crowd claim pre-Fall vegitarianism, I entertain myself in the odd dull moment envisioning lions with moose teeth for munching on coarse savannah grasses.


187 posted on 10/05/2005 12:13:33 PM PDT by From many - one.
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To: Ichneumon
So you falsely assume, anyway. Anyone who has bothered to actually study the subject (which leaves out the IDers) is familiar with various natural processes which bring about the increase of complexity without the intervention of "intelligent design".

Evolutionists have never established any proof that any species has been trnasformed into another. They can only offer 'possibilities'.

188 posted on 10/05/2005 12:14:45 PM PDT by connectthedots
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To: CarolinaGuitarman
Have you actually READ any of her articles/book reviews? How do you know what her political leanings are from the titles that you provided? Be specific. Otherwise, you're just blowing smoke.

Reality is inconvenient to creationists when better arguments can be made by simply making things up. Facts are anathema to them.
189 posted on 10/05/2005 12:16:51 PM PDT by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
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To: b_sharp
All the evidence was washed away by the flood....

The only successful conspiracies are undetectable because all evidence is covered up, like the ET's removal of Kennedy's body.

190 posted on 10/05/2005 12:17:26 PM PDT by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch ist der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: Thatcherite; connectthedots
"I note that you didn't address the main thrust of my response at all.

You can't answer something you don't understand.

191 posted on 10/05/2005 12:18:21 PM PDT by b_sharp (Science adjusts theories to fit evidence, creationism distorts evidence to fit the Bible.)
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To: microgood
Of course it's an opinion, just as jurors have opinions about facts in a criminal case. Facts are not objective truths, because we are not God. Facts are things we believe beyond reasonable doubt, as jurors are instructed to determine before committing someone to prison or to death.

There are many disputes among scientists regarding details at the level of molecular biology, and there are always unsettled areas in every science, but several statements about evolution would be regarded as facts by 99+ percent of biologists.

These facts would include the age of the earth, common descent, and natural selection as the primary shaper of populations.

I'm quite convinced that these three are the only items that evolution opponents really care about, and they are not under any serious challenge. The first two items are accepted by Dembski, Behe and Denton, so they aren't on the table at all.
192 posted on 10/05/2005 12:20:28 PM PDT by js1138 (Great is the power of steady misrepresentation.)
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To: longshadow

193 posted on 10/05/2005 12:20:40 PM PDT by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch ist der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: Ichneumon
In "the ID method", one is free to completely ignore all evidence which contradicts the desired conclusion, and hand-wave it away as "speculative" (even though the evidence is what it is, and still exists despite being dishonestly labeled "speculative").

You left out step 3: claim that absolutely nothing whatsoever has been presented as evidence in the first place.
194 posted on 10/05/2005 12:21:32 PM PDT by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
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To: From many - one.
Since some of this crowd claim pre-Fall vegetarianism, I entertain myself in the odd dull moment envisioning lions with moose teeth for munching on coarse savanna grasses.

Ah, but cats still eat grass, and coughing up hairballs is vestigial rumination. Explain that away.

195 posted on 10/05/2005 12:23:33 PM PDT by js1138 (Great is the power of steady misrepresentation.)
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To: b_sharp
Thankfully, the age of the earth, as measured by a number of methods, is not subject to your opinion. No errors possible would change the 4.5by age to 7000 years.

When I said estimates about the age of the Earth are largely speculative, that included both ends of the range.

ID admits that complexity can can be produced by nature but nature cannot produce 'specified' complexity.

Your comment is not clear.

196 posted on 10/05/2005 12:25:09 PM PDT by connectthedots
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To: PatrickHenry
To restore the glorious Dark Ages.

To allow the pre-Copernican perfection to reign once more, restoring Earth to it's Rightful Throne at the Center of the Universe.....

< /anti-scientific lunacy mode>

197 posted on 10/05/2005 12:25:12 PM PDT by longshadow
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To: From many - one.

"Since some of this crowd claim pre-Fall vegitarianism, I entertain myself in the odd dull moment envisioning lions with moose teeth for munching on coarse savannah grasses."

Ah, but you see, the grass was transubstantiated into flesh and blood the moment it entered the lion's mouth. There's an illogical explanation for everything. Just ask...


198 posted on 10/05/2005 12:25:55 PM PDT by MineralMan (godless atheist)
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To: longshadow

100


199 posted on 10/05/2005 12:26:57 PM PDT by PatrickHenry (Disclaimer -- this information may be legally false in Kansas.)
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To: PatrickHenry

dang!


200 posted on 10/05/2005 12:27:13 PM PDT by PatrickHenry (Disclaimer -- this information may be legally false in Kansas.)
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