Darwin Goes to Church

Washington Post ^ | 9/18/2005 | Rev. Henry G. Brinton

[curiosity]

Most adult Sunday school classes don't raise eyebrows, but my church is planning to hold one that's sure to. It's called "Evolution for Christians," and it will be taught this winter by David Bush, a member of the church I lead, Fairfax Presbyterian. David is an articulate government retiree who has been interested in this topic for nearly two decades, teaches a class on theories of the origins of life every five years or so, and once again has really done his homework. His view is that science and religion answer two different sets of questions about creation, with science answering the "how" questions, and religion answering the "why" ones. "With a little bit of wisdom and tolerance on each side," he tells me, "I think they can complement rather than contradict each other."

[VadeRetro]

Careful walking around with a head so large.

If your head's been big for a long time, you probably have the neck muscles to handle it.

Seriously, I boggle that anyone can see symmetry in the posts here. The nature of the arguments made couldn't be less symmetric.

[Stone Mountain]

There were witnesses to those events.

There were witnesses to the virgin birth? How does that work?

[Stone Mountain]

Why is it that when a creationist wishes to portray an idea as false and worthless, he calls it religion, and when an ID advocate seeks respect, he calls ID science?

Just had to see that again. Great comment.

[Zionist Conspirator]

His view is that science and religion answer two different sets of questions about creation, with science answering the "how" questions, and religion answering the "why" ones. "With a little bit of wisdom and tolerance on each side," he tells me, "I think they can complement rather than contradict each other."

Translation: It is a religious truth, but not a scientific truth, that G-d created the universe. It is a scientific truth, but not a religious truth, that the universe is a gigantic coincidence with no purpose or significance whatsoever (other than achieving "global social justice" or whatever other hang-ups evolutionists may be having at a given moment).

I thought "double truth" was disposed of some five hundred years ago.

[wideawake]

"If anyone says that a proposition may be true in philosophy and false in theology or vice versa, let him be anathema."

[RogueIsland]

Yup. And there are thousands in the fossil record.

You have to understand that by Creationist logic, every transition fossil creates a gap on either side of it that needs a transition fossil, and therefore the existence of transition fossils only serve to prove the inaccuracy of Evolution due to a lack of transition fossils.

[JohnnyM]

"The Bible is full of contradictions. That doesn't mean it wasn't inspired by God.It does mean that it is not a statute book that you can read according to you own lights and be certain of.

One thing I find fascinating is how believers are so eager to discredit the Word of God.

Duet 8:3ff - that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live

Psalms 33:4 - For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth.

Psalms 33:6 - By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.

Psalms 119:103 - How sweet are thy words unto my taste! yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth!

Psalms 119:105 - Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

Psalms 119:140 - Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it

Psalms 119:160 - Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

Psalms 130:5 - I wait for the LORD, my soul doth wait, and in his word do I hope

Proverbs 3:5 - Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

Proverbs 13:13 - Whoso despiseth the word shall be destroyed: but he that feareth the commandment shall be rewarded.

Proverbs 30:5 - Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.

Are works necessary to faith? Paul says no. James says yes. Which is it? Is God confused?

God is not confused. James says works are the product of faith, not vice versa.

He left a Church, not a Bible.

He left a Body not a Head. Christ is Head.

because the Devil can quote Scripture to serve his purposes.

Yes, and one of the things he does with it is cause doubt. Back in the garden he said to Eve "hath God said?". His plan of attack was to get Eve to doubt God's Word. Something that is all too common on these threads.

JM

[Vicomte13]

JohnnyM, you provided me a great list of things that talk about the Word of the Lord.

Now, please, close the loop and provide me the text that says that the BIBLE is "The Word of the Lord".

THAT assertion is not in the Bible.
It is our tradition. We say that. The Bible does not say that. It says that the Word of the Lord is the Truth.
Who can dispute that?
It does NOT say that the Bible is the Word of the Lord.

It says, actually, the the Word is God, and the Word became flesh. And Jesus says that his spirit will be with the Church he made.

Jesus says nothing about the Bible.
That is RATHER important, since he is God.
He makes reference to some scriptures and some stories which are found in the Septuagint version, the Greek Old Testament.
He does not define what "scripture" is.
Nor does anywhere else in the Bible.

Nor can we use cross references in the Bible to prove scripture. The Bible refers to the Book of the Wars of the Lord, which we do not have (did God permit that part of His word to be destroyed). The Letter of Jude refers to Enoch, which is not in the Bible either.

There is nothing wrong with using the Bible for faith and instruction. There is a problem, the problem of idolatry, of holding up the Bible and saying that this is the be all and end all, THE Word of the Lord, superseding all other things. God never says that in the Bible. Jesus never said that walking on Earth.

And the assertion ends up dividing Christians one from another and causing tremendous fights among them, because no two people read the same set of words identically. God knows this, which is probably why when he walked the Earth he did NOT leave a Bible, nor a Bible Dispensary, but a Church of men, and those men made a hierarchy to pass down the traditions.

If the Bible was so important to God that it supersedes everything else, you would have think that God would have thought to mention that in the Bible. But He didn't.

You say He did. Which brings us back to the beginning: cite for me the place where the Bible says that the Bible is The Word of the Lord. Indeed, cite for me the place where the Bible refers to the Bible. Cite for me the place where the Bible says that the Bible is to be used to overrule the Church that God made.
Cite for me the place that the Bible says that the Bible is the supreme authority.
Cite for me the place where the Bible defines what the Bible is, or what books are to be in it.

[metmom]

Easy, they're extinct. I'm not Baptist but I am puzzled as to why evoluiontists seem to think that creationists can't don't believe in dinosaurs. There are passages in the book of Job that describe creatures that could be dinosaurs. I know, the old radio carbon dating thing and all. I'm just making a statement.

[metmom]

can't/don't

[Stark_GOP]

"The nature of the arguments made couldn't be less symmetric."
---
I wasn't present an argument. Something for which you are too fond of.
I was observing that both sides of the debate want to make their cases as tangible as possible by certain techniques.

Release some of the pressure before your ears pop off.

[Sensei Ern]

There are a few hypthesiseseses.

One is the Gap theory. This is the idea that between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2, there was an old creation and was destroyed when Satan rebelled against God and this is when Satan fell to the earth. THis theory has been rejected by a lot of people only because they think it flies in the face of a six day creation, but in fact it allows for both a seven day initial creation and a six day recreation. It is supported by key words like the fact Adam and Eve were comissioned to replinish the earth, and not fill it. Another is the arguement that God makes things perfect, and Genesis 1:2 say it was without form and void.

Another is that they existed with man up until the flood. The idea is that before the flood, the earth was covered by a canopy of water and the environment was different and this is why people lived much longer. I don't fully accept this because it does not explain a lot of things like how the stars could be seen if they were obscured by a layer of water.

Another is that the age of Adam doesn't start until the day he sinned, because until then, he was an immortal being, without age. There is nothing that tells how long Adam and Eve were in the Garden before they sinned. It appears it happened on the eighth day only because after telling of the seventh day, God tells us immediately how Eve and Adam sinned. This would allow for whatever time is needed for the light from distant stars to arrive at earth millions of years later. This would also allow for time for dinosaurs to turn into oil. Adam and Eve were in the Garden with God and may have not been allowed out because of the dangers outside it.

These are three, and there could be more, but the point is, all support the truth that God formed the earth as is in six days.

[bobdsmith]

There are still creatures that exist as they were in pre-historic times, are there not? Why should have the bird-reptile have necessarily gone extinct?

Well why not? The majority of life that has ever existed has gone extinct.

So, it seems that what you are saying is that modern repitiles would not be evolving anymore.

No im not saying that. Reptiles are still evolving, but there are many directions they could evolve to and the chance of them evolving in a specific direction (ie birds) is very low.

If evolution is a continuous process then we should still see transitional forms today as lower forms are evolving into higher ones.

Evolution isn't about lower forms turning into higher forms. Is a reptile lower than a bird? No, they are both just different types of vertebrate. Transitional forms are only visible after the fact. For example reptile-bird transitionals were not visibly transtionals back when they existed. At the time they would have just looked like a weird kind of reptile.

[narby]

Every miracle is a violation of physical laws. How do you explain the virgin birth (assuming you believe it) without violating physical laws?

Actually, I no longer believe it.

I have been convinced by people who believe as you that I must either accept fairy tale versions of how the universe was created and species developed that violate the evidence in hand, or I must reject the Bible and God. So I've rejected God.

This is the conundrum that Christians with your interpretation of Genesis have placed yourselves. Either I must reject massive amounts of evidence in multiple fields of science, or I must reject God.

This creates a Christian culture thats marginalized, consisting only of people with a certain ..... gullibility. I'm sure it makes it easy when the preacher asks for tithes, and makes for a tight group. But where Christianity used to be virtually universal in the American culture, (either believed outright, or at least had the respect of almost everyone) it is now an isolated, although large, group.

[narby]

There were witnesses to the virgin birth? How does that work?

I don't believe it myself. But at least *someone* was around 2000 years ago. But even when Genesis claims the earth was created, no witnesses existed.

[js1138]

I have some version of spybot that blocks some sites using tracking cookies. It also blocks some commercial sites. I have more than one computer, so I haven't worried about fixing it.

[JohnnyM]

Jesus makes multiple references to the Scripture throughout the gospels, particularly when talking about prophecy and being the fulfillment of them. I will focus on one of these verses .

Luke 24:44 - And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Here, Christ is validating the three sections of the Jewish Scripture found in the OT. The Law (The first 5 books of the Bible), the Prophets (Isaiah, Ezek, etc) and the Psalms/Writings(Psalms, Proverbs, Kings, etc). He affirms these passages as Holy Scripture.

Romans 3:2 - Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God

Here is Paul saying that the Scriptures of the Jews are the oracles of God.

2 Peter 3:16 - As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Here is Peter comparing Paul's writings to Scripture.

Now I have not validated all the books, but I would say the vast majority of them have support from the Bible for their inclusion as Holy Scripture.

Our argument on this thread though concerns evolution and creation. Something covered extensively in Genesis, a book Jesus considers to be Holy Scripture.

But just in case you still have any doubts, lets hear it from Jesus Himself:

Mark 10:5-6 - And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.

Is Jesus a liar??

JM

[js1138]

I was being balanced and pointing out that everyone uses the same debating techniques. I've thought about it; maybe you should too.

It's an odd debating technique to agree with you opponent's view of your position.

[Protagoras]

Evolution is amazing, I wonder who invented it?

[js1138]

Is Jesus a liar??

Are the stories Jesus told about the talents and such literally true?