Grim Iraq reality dawns for Bush

Washington Post, via The Standard (Hong Kong) ^ | August 16, 2005 | Robin Wright and Ellen Knickmeyer

[Brigadier]

``We set out to establish a democracy, but we're slowly realizing we will have some form of Islamic republic,'' said another US official familiar with policymaking from the beginning.

[SuziQ]

But I will believe that it is a VERY worthy cause when the 2 unemployed Bush girls sign up for service there.

I don't believe the girls are unemployed. I think Jenna will be teaching in DC, and Barbara is continuing her education.

[hosepipe]

[ Under sharia there is no freedom and no human rights since the Quran controls ever detail of daily living. ]

Not so(about no freedom).. under sharia law there as much freedom as the mullahs(the gov't) want you to have.. like in democracy.. both sharia law and democracy have zero rights.. merely gov't granted privileges .. big difference between god given rights and gov't granted privilges..

Democracy is mob rule(group rule).. as is Sharia Law.. also Monarchy, Oligarchy, several other 'archy's and any autocratic form of government.. is MOB RULE.. only difference is the mob that rules.. THATS WHY the United States is NOT a democracy..

Three words found NOWHERE in the U.S. Constitution..
1) democracy...
2) democractic..
3) democrat.. its by design and is NOT an oversight.. The founders knew full well what democracy was and chose against it.. ON PURPOSE.. A republic is democratic in its essense but still is NOT a democracy.. BECAUSE... a democracy IS Mob Rule..

[SuziQ]

But there were ties to the Saudis that the administration secreted out of the country

You must have studied Michael Moore's movie very well. However, Moore is full of CRAP, as are his so called 'truths'.

The US govt. didn't 'secret' any Saudis out of the country. When the ban on travel was lifted, members of the bin Laden family, undoubtedly fearing for their own safety, as they should have if they had been living anywhere but the US, left on privately chartered planes. If I'm not mistaken, Richard Clark helped them obtain the necessary documents to get out of the country quickly. This was not secret, if anyone had been looking for the information, they would have found it. These bin Laden family members were not suspects, nor were any of them implicated in the attacks. They just happened to be related to the nutcase who DID arrange for and pay for the attacks.

[FightThePower!]

We are losing this war because we can never win. Does anyone honestly think that the insurgents will stop?

[Dark Skies]

I think we're picking nits here. You seem to be drawing a distinction between a democracy and a republic (one which I agree with by the way)...and I am using the word "democracy" in a simple definition (as it has been used in referring to the government to be constituted in Iraq...a government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives).

Mullahs aren't elected and, though they may adhere in varying degrees to the dictates of the Quran and the life of the Prophet, the rules and punishments of Sharia are potentially medieval and more intrusive than not.

My bottom line is, frankly, I would rather see a republic in Iraq and a highly secular one at that rather than any form of sharia.

Also, Hirsi Ali is in Toronto this week protesting against the possible use of sharia in settling and mediating family disputes. You are probably familiar with her. I think she would say that the human rights under sharia, to the extent any exist, greatly depend on one's gender.

[APRPEH]

are you arguing with me or the writer of the article? i do not accept your evidence as conclusive. it is circumstantial. people who have common interests do not necessarily make permanent bonds of nationhood. the writer is citing historical fact.
i totally agree that the likely resulting conflict will be for power. how is this different than any other overthrow of arab regiemes?

interestingly enough, however you define "nationalism" whether in a global sense or more myopic sense, the fear in March was that some sort of "nationalism" was contributing to the insurgency.:
http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:IOOdPbtRbYsJ:fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/45969.pdf+iraq+nationalism&hl=en&start=2

[roses of sharon]

Islamic cults have been roaming the globe blowing up innocents for 25 years, with impunity. They do it for a political solution, political blackmail, citizen fear.

What do they want in Iraq? What are they hoping to achieve?
What do they want in Israel? In Bali, in London, in Afghanistan.........what did they want at the Munich Olympics?

Are they fighting for a noble cause? Human rights? Political rights? A civilized nation?

No. And they want you to say, "we can't win".

They fight in Israel, Afghanistan and Iraq for the destruction of democracy, to kill Jews and Christians and anyone who associates with them, and on and on, their excuses are endless.

They will never stop, cults will be cults, but their "causes" will dwindle with each passing year of economic, political civility, and maturity.

The march of modernity is against them. Give it a chance, since 9/11 ours is the first real fight against them, ever. This is a long war.

[jveritas]

Take your defeatist attiude somewhere else. We are winning this war and we will achieve the ultimate victory. You are a defeatist who believes that a bunch of evil terrorists hated by 95% of Iraqis are going to defeat the greatest military force in the world History, the United States military. Shame on you for posting such defeatist comments.

[hosepipe]

[ You seem to be drawing a distinction between a democracy and a republic (one which I agree with by the way).. ]

I know.. I used your post as a canard to make the connection of Mob rule to sharia law..

On FR democracy is referred to as mob rule because it IS..
The fact that Sharia law is also Mob Rule.. is not as frequently made.. Tribal rule is also mob rule.. All mob rule is the same "type" of government.. The democracys of URP are also mob rule..

This Republic is representative government ruled by law (the Constitution). A democracy is direct government ruled by the majority (mob rule). THIS Republic recognizes the inalienable rights(given by god and not the gov't) of individuals while democracies(ALL democracys) are only concerned with group(mobs) wants or needs (the public good).

[johnb838]

America is a Republic, Friend. Get used to it. It's not a slur to be a Republic. It's an honor.

[Gaffer]

Roger that! Why are they posting here? Should be over with the wackos at DU

[John Lenin]

Unintended consequences are a b***h.

The RAT party is going down the drain over the war in Iraq. Yep, unintended consequences have been a b$%h for Ted Kennedy and John Kerry. Now, grow a brain and when it is fully functioning come back and make a bigger arse of yourself.

[Mrs.Nooseman]

That is what I was thinking ,when I started reading this thread.

[FightThePower!]

Sorry, we won't win this war. If 95% of the Iraqis were on our side the terrorists would have no where to hide. We will end up pulling out and the current government will colapse.

Bush made a huge mistake. How many of you would support this war if Clinton were in power?

[Night Hides Not]

Some days I believe we have just as many "Facts mess up my agenda" posters as DU does.

We have many more, for two simple reasons:

1. FreeRepublic has a much larger membership.

2. Virtually all of the "facts mess up my agenda" subset are DU trolls.

Once they're zotted, or had the errors of their ways described in great detail to them, they scurry back to DU. Their common thread consists of extreme vulgarity with no common sense, and their hate for President Bush. These masturbatory threads then continue for 40-60 posts, until the next battle-weary DUmmy comes to detail his exploits at FreeRepublic.

I guess DU is the perfect place for the Deaniacs.

[Gaffer]

But it appears from looking at the membership dates on some of these "pessimists" that DU trolls have been here quite a while. Only now are they 'voicing' true conservative disagreement with GW's mistakes. Make no mistake, these liberals may be basically morally corrupt and have made a lot of mistakes about the basic morality of the American heartland, but they have also learned the clever art of subterfuge, disinformation, and feigned sincere questioning of the current policies. It is nothing more than intellectual espionage and PSY OPS against the Republican base. The ones here since after 2000 (there are a few) are revenge for Florida.

[AmericanVictory]

A typo. Should have been: "What fuels the `creep of Islam?'"

[Brigadier]

"Where were you between December 3 2001, and September 17 2004?
And where have you been since September 17, 2004?"

Studying history, and not wasting any time getting in shouting matches with nitwits. FR is the internet equivalent of "conservative" talk radio. Lots of jingoism and negligible thought in both mediums. I'm a small 'l' libertarian like the majority of the founding fathers. Anyone is welcome to check out my collection of quotes at: http://www.geocities.com/rab_fw/
If you can be taught, you might learn something.

[Brigadier]

"If Islamism triumphs over democracy (or Westernism actually) then we will have to kill them all or be killed or convert ot Islam."

The above statement is total lunacy.

"Somehow I think that you, Brigadier, are akin to Cindy Sheehan, and would welcome the death of "Neocons." Shameful."

I agree with Sheehan on one thing only, this idiot war. I do not wish the death of any neocon, but a stiff prison sentence for treason would be greatly appreciated!

[Brigadier]

But at least no Neocons had to die...

What in the hell does that mean?

It means that the people who lied us into this mess are safely ensconced in DC while others die for their pipe dreams.