Posted on 08/13/2005 3:49:15 PM PDT by PatrickHenry
The cover story of the August 15, 2005, issue of Time magazine is Claudia Wallis's "The evolution wars" -- the first cover story on the creationism/evolution controversy in a major national newsweekly in recent memory.
With "When Bush joined the fray last week, the question grew hotter: Is 'intelligent design' a real science? And should it be taught in schools?" as its subhead, the article, in the space of over 3000 words, reviews the current situation in detail. Highlights of the article include:
While Wallis's article is inevitably not as scientifically detailed as, for example, H. Allen Orr's recent article in The New Yorker, or as politically astute as, for example, Chris Mooney's recent article in The American Prospect, overall it accomplishes the important goal of informing the general reader that antievolutionism -- whether it takes the form of creation science, "intelligent design," or calls to "teach the controversy" -- is scientifically unwarranted, pedagogically irresponsible, and constitutionally problematic.
No, I must argue with individuals like you because Churches are just collections of individuals. Even if some individuals decide to believe other than God on any given issue. It may be their right to believe what they want. That doesn't make it true and it doesn't change what the Judaic and Christian Scriptures say. And I don't care what the Pope thinks or says. He is a man, not God. Peter was an Apostle of Christ and had to be rebuked and corrected by Paul. I don't grant that the Pope is anything similar, special or better than you or I in God's eyes. He will answer to God just as you and I will and with no special treatment. He is responsible to God for his words and without excuse.. just as both of us are. You knew enough about your subject to argue without even bothering to check what I was saying. You went directly to evolutionist tactics rather than defending God's word. And you would tell me that you are an ID proponent but apparently not a Christian? The first tenet of Christianity is that you believe God. The first tenet of Judaism is that you believe God. Christians don't get to pick and choose what, from God, they will believe any more than Adam and Eve had that right. Since when are you special?
Well as you well know being the scholar you are that god created plant and land animal and all that creeps on the sixth day.
Ummm. No. Genesis 1:9-13 states that was done on DAY Three. On day six, God gave the plants, herbs, trees, etc to man. grass, herb bearing sead, trees, etc all came on day three, before the sun was created. Have you actually ever read Genesis? Or are you just taking it on someone elses nonsense that these things are so?
Actually I am just going by memory. But that being said, if you are to take literally word for word what the bible says, as you are. Then I assume you deserve to be stoned a few times, maybe your wife or your children also. Whens the last time you ate pork? Catfish? Slept in the same room as a woman while she was on her period? Masturbated? Had a cheeseburger? Skipped a day of work to have fun? Gossiped?
I could go on and on, if you would have me stick to orthodoxy on creation, then its only fair to be orthodox on the rest and to demand that of you, since you demand of me the same.
Catholicism embraces Darwin instead of God after decrying Galileo as a Heretic when he was right and the Catholic Church was wrong. And? Are you building support for evolution with this somehow? lol
Jesus stated that the world was made in six days. Is he now more or less the word of God than the word of God?
And you would tell me that you are an ID proponent but apparently not a Christian?>>
Nothing about ID says I must be a Christian. Tell me exactly where in the theory that says so?
The first tenet of Christianity is that you believe God. The first tenet of Judaism is that you believe God.>>
Yeah and I do, whats your beef with that?
Christians don't get to pick and choose what, from God>>
Christians have and will, ever since Christianity was formed. The day you celebrate Christmas to Easter, from what you eat and when your baptized.
Sounds to me that you would have every Christian revert to the dark ages again.
Another argument from ignorance it would seem. The levitical laws are old covenant and have no effect in Christianity other than as a guide in showing God's mind on what is sin. Christ's act took judgement over a man's life out of the hands of men and put it back in the hands of God. So, you really are just writhing about in it with no sense of what you are saying, aren't you.
I could go on and on, if you would have me stick to orthodoxy on creation
Creation isn't a levitical law and has nothing whatever to do with the levitical law. Just as you have no earthly clue what it is you're talking about because by admition, you're going from 'memory.' Yeah, right. That's what makes you have no concept of what is actually said in Genesis and no clue what the levitical laws were about, much less that they have no bearing on Genesis 1. We aren't arguing about Orthodoxy here. You're trying to change the meaning of words that are defined within the text so that they cannot be mistaken. And when it blows up in your face, you copout to nonsense about stoning people to death as if it has any relevance. Before you go trying to tell people what Genesis says, you might read it.. And not just to see the words - really read it for understanding of what it ACTUALLY SAYS. How you could carry on about the subject for 3 days and have no earthly clue and then want to bug out as if you were tired of dealing with a subject you haven't actually dealt with is as mysterious as a paraconformity. It's uncomfortable when one is defrocked of pretense - isn't it.
Ummm, did you even read that article? And do you even know the real story behind Galileo and himbeing called a Heretic? Did you know he had numerous audiences with the Pope where he was celebrated for his theories before his inquisition?
And no I am not building support for evolution for this asshole. You sure are a tough guy arent you?
LOL whatever, keep talking.
nother argument from ignorance it would seem. The levitical laws are old covenant and have no effect in Christianity other than as a guide in showing God's mind on what is sin. Christ's act took judgement over a man's life out of the hands of men and put it back in the hands of God. So, you really are just writhing about in it with no sense of what you are saying, aren't you.>>
Hpold on there genius, you are the one arguying for orthodoxy FROM THE F****G OLD TESTAMENT DO NOT CHANGE ON ME ASSHOLE. Youy cannot argue on one hand that the the creation story is to be taken word for word, but the laws in leviticus are to be ignored. You just said "why do some christians choose to believe what they want to belive" well I tell you what you whiney little ass, you are prime example of what you cried about.
I am through with your name calling, insulting posts from the very first one. I dont like you and I sure as hell wish to meet you because I will hand your ass to you with your bible shoved up it. You are nothing but a condescending pile of dog filth. Oh I know what you are going to do, cry to the mods, oh wha he used bad names shame on him. Well I dont care.
I did not bring Geneiss into IT UNTIL YOUR BIG FAT ASS stepped into the fray and started ATTACKING ME, I was arguing outside the bible if only to make some whippy quotes and smart allecky remarks but your tightass fundamentalist KKK book burning ass cannot read inside the lines.
Geez.
So far you've done nothing but mistate the record and have done so as an argument for evolution. Yet you say you are an ID proponent. Smells pretty funny to me.
And, no, Christians do not get to pick and choose what they believe from God. There are those that make pretense, those that are clueless, etc; but, not believing God, as a Christian, is not an option anymore than it is for a heathen.
The entire idea of a Christian is that they have decided to believe and follow God's word and will. It doesn't stop us from asking questions or being human on the other hand.
As for reverting to the dark ages, I don't know what playbook you're running from; but, it isn't ID. It isn't Christian and it sounds like pure evolutionist drivel to the core or worse. You don't know your subject and you keep hinting at spook stories about stonings and the darkages.
Christianity is about neither of those things. There may be people that did such things in the past and used the Christian label in the doing. That doesn't make them right anymore than it made them Christian. The world is full of people claiming to be what they are not.. look at you, you're here claiming to be for ID while throwing arguments supporting evolution. Who'd have guessed that possible? Personally, I don't know what you're doing here other than causing confusion.. you sure don't know the subject you claim to have discussed for 3 days. At the least you've frustrated some people and wasted their time under the pretense that you did. But, then, that's the evo mindset.
Your actions speak louder than your words.
So far you've done nothing but mistate the record and have done so as an argument for evolution. >>>
No I have not. The crux of all my arguments until this point has been in support of ID. And if you actually read ID you would realize nowhere does it say GOD, or CHristianity or anything alluding to a particular religion, that is a construct of your mind not mine.
It doesn't stop us from asking questions or being human on the other hand.>>>
Absolutely.
As for reverting to the dark ages, I don't know what playbook you're running from; but, it isn't ID. It isn't Christian and it sounds like pure evolutionist drivel to the core or worse.>>
And you know damn well why I brought that up, you are misstating, and taking out of context the core of my argument on that, for shame. Your argument was simple, why do Christians pick and chose what they believe. You either take god at his word or dont.
you're here claiming to be for ID while throwing arguments supporting evolution.>>
I am for ID, and if you actually read what ID is you would know its to explain what evolution fails to explain, the "macro" evolution, the origin of the earth etc, it does not wholly exclude that aspects of evolution does not exist, they argue that the complexity of certain things only point to a creator.
But, then, that's the evo mindset.
Your actions speak louder than your words.>>>
As do yours.
Oh, I didn't say that by far. The laws in leviticus are a view into God's mind on what is and is not sin. But, the levitical laws are old covenant. The new Testament, the Books starting with Matthew in any standard Bible, are new covenant and deal with a different sacrificial system, etc. I could give you a pretty thorough rundown on how it all works here; but, you aren't anymore interested in that than you were in Genesis 1. You didn't bother to know what you were talking about there and you don't know anymore what you're talking about now. You're just throwing charges that you've evidently been taught to throw by reading someone's Evolution nonsense and they didn't care if what they were saying was true either.
You just said "why do some christians choose to believe what they want to belive" well I tell you what you whiney little ass, you are prime example of what you cried about.
No, I just have a clue about Christianity where you do not. You don't even know the relevance of the levitical laws in their proper original use, I'm sure. At best, you know they exist because you've mentioned them. But you haven't demonstrated that you have a clue and are thusly angered when taken to task yet again. Big surprise.
I am through with your name calling, insulting posts from the very first one.
Good. Go learn your subject before you speak about it and you might not get so frustrated when shown not to know what you're talking about. As for your cussing and carrying on, I've been cussed out by better than you at it. It doesn't change whether you know what you're talking about or not. And if you did care, you'd bother to get it right - huh.
Glad you got all your bias off your chest before leaving. It is instructive of your mindset.
Bunk. The arguments you made about Genesis were pure evolutionist drivel from word one. There is nothing ID about them. The whole idea of compromising Christian and Judaic Scripture for "gap" theories and garbage like that comes right out of the evolutionist camp, not the ID camp. I wasn't commenting on what ID claimed re God. I commented with regard to your own argumentation. When ID shoots down Evolution and you sit making evolutionist arguments about core scriptures for Judaism and Christianity right out of the evolutionist playbook - serving evolution, not ID, then one has to begin to question where you're coming from - the which I did.
In essence you're telling us you are ID/evolutionist/whatever else. Sounds like a mess.
Oh, I didn't say that by far.>>
Oh you absolutely did say that.
But, the levitical laws are old covenant. The new Testament, the Books starting with Matthew in any standard Bible, are new covenant and deal with a different sacrificial system, etc. I could give you a pretty thorough rundown on how it all works here>>
Give me the thorough rundown then. Tell me where in the NT does it say its OK to eat fish without scales, or eat pork, or cook meat with milk products, or eat with its fat on or blood? Tell me where. I sure as heck cant find those clarifications.
So, OK levitical laws have to be taken at the original use and meaning, ANd pray tell, what are there original meaning and use?
Its seems to me that you are a hypocrite, you dont know ID and you cant even accuse str8 without it biting you back.
LOL, sigh.
Bunk?? LOL Bunk you said.
Here is ID as best said from the ID network, a leading proponent of ID:
The theory of intelligent design (ID) holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause rather than an undirected process such as natural selection. ID is thus a scientific disagreement with the core claim of evolutionary theory that the apparent design of living systems is an illusion.
Notice the word CERTAIN, and that ID theory itself does not wholly discard evolution rather it seeks to replace the core claims of it.
Where does it say GOD, Jesus, or any deity other than a nameless intelligence?
And I will believe my God, and My Catholicosm the way its handed to me, you can no more tell me how to live and breather my religion than I yours.
And saying, jokingly " had to give evolution a chance" does nt make me an evolutionist. An evolution by your definition excludes GOD, I have never oince excluded GOD, yet you seem to think that unless I follow exactly what the bible says is creation I am excluding GOD, bunk pure bunk. You call any Christian be him the Pope or anybody that believes evolution fits inside Creationism as somehow heretics.
Let me ask you something when did you become GOD?
No, I didn't. And the reason you don't seem to understand that is the same reason you don't understand that the levitical laws have nothing whatever to do with Christianity. Because you know nothing about it beyond, evidently, what someone told you or taught you in utter ignorance or as an argumentation tactic.
Tell me where in the NT does it say its OK to eat fish without scales...
The Book of Acts chapter 10 is a good starting point.
Acts 10:15 "And the voice [spake] unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, [that] call not thou common."
..the apostles later discussed the issue together and dealt with what would be required to teach to the Gentiles. The new covenant that created Christianity is not Judaism. It is in fulfillment of Judaism. Christ's sacrifice closed the old sacrificial system and did away with any need for sacrifice by doing it once for all time. In Christianity, there is no blood sacrifice - it just took one to seal the covenant. One that cannot, will not and need not be repeated again ever.
What's the upshot of that? Under the old covenant sacrificial system and law, one could be forgiven of certain types of sin by sacrificing animals to God for different sins. It's a sacrifice because oft times the animal they gave over to God might otherwise sustain them physically for a time and represented large investments. More could be said in that vein; but, it's unimportant. Under the law, there were many things so disgusting and evil in God's site that people were to be put to death rather than to have their actions spread. Homosexuality and Lesbianism were among them, as well as the killing - even inadvertantly - of an unborn child. Wrongs before God and man were dealt with on the level of "an eye for an eye". If you leave the power to create in the hands of someone, as God, and they think it worth running through their intestines and crapping out on the ground, what judgement do you put upon them in their disrespect for the means of creating life? Simple, you deprive them of what they disrespect just as you would deprive a murderer for the same reason - disrespect of life and God's creation and will. The problem with the levitical law in the end was that it was left in the hands of men to enforce. And that ended up meaning the sales of forgiveness. Going to the temple, one could buy animals for sacrifice at a price. If they couldn't afford the beast and couldn't find one because of the capitolistic nature, they were tough out of luck. Money for forgiveness was the economy of the priests. That is what enraged Christ when he overturned the moneychanger's tables at the Temple. They were selling God's forgiveness for profit. And they had no compunction that this might be wrong.
Christ therefore took this upon himself as a final sacrifice and took forgiveness of sin out of the hands of the priests as well as punishment for sin. God reserves both now to himself and gives away forgiveness freely while punishing individually. In the doing, the levitical laws became an artifact. Men could no longer take the life of another man - which was also abused. That authority was removed to prevent further abuse. But, even now, there are sects that attempt to tell you that you must get forgiveness from a priesthood and the like - attempting successfully in some caases to burden people with untruths for the gain of their priesthood - forgiveness for profit. The difference is that today, people taken in by it have no one to blame but themselves .. for not reading that it's free.
That's the nutshell of it. God bent over backwards to make forgiveness accessable for men. He paid the price for men so they wouldn't have to buy it and couldn't be blackmailed to get the access.. etc. God has made more than a best effort attempt to help man see his folly and change his ways. Man has but to do so and heed God. It's that simple. But most won't. They'll go to hell complaining about how bad the world and life are only to find that Hell is worse because God isn't in Hell to intervene. People can be nasty, murderous and unjust to the nth degree on earth with God here to intervene.. how much moreso in God's utter absence. The world of today is man's making and man's mess, not God's. God gave us choice to do what we will and what we see today is the product of all our choices - not his. I'm sure the evos don't teach you that either..
I suppose that word in bold is Catholicism and is Roman rite? That pretty much explains the whole mess with you. Glad I'm Christian instead. Wish you were too.
An evolution by your definition excludes GOD
It excludes him in things he claims direct involvement in, calls him a liar as a result both directly and indirectly which is blasphemy, etc. Something we Christians take rather better care about. Evolution says that the world started with fire, God says it started with Water. Evolution says no Global flood, God says he destroyed the earth with one in judgement of mankind. On and on we can go. Evolution contradicts God and the Bible at every turn and outright. So, yeah, we Christians have a bit of a problem with it where you Catholics might not. Your religion is one of Philosophy that borrows from Christianity. Christianity, however, doesn't follow philosophy, but instead follows Christ - thus the dead giveaway in the term "Christian".
Luke 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other..
The verse finishes by saying axiomatically that one cannot serve God and money as masters. If one cannot serve two masters, which is the point of the statement, and two masters are God and Money, one cannot serve God and Money. Simple logic. One can also not serve God and philosophy. See how that works? You exemplify the axiomatic truth of that scripture - dispising the scripture and holding to the philosophy of evolution. Congrats. You've just proven God right.
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At best, A-Girl, what you've got there is a list of interesting research projects for PhD candidates to work on. I don't see anything that even remotely contradicts evolution. But this thread is way too long, and no one is likely to jump in at this stage, so we should save it for another thread. Perhaps after this Bush/Frist/ID mess calms down, if it ever does. I'm not up to getting into anything serious at the present.
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