Posted on 06/17/2005 9:26:27 PM PDT by CHARLITE
Sometimes you hear a discussion or debate in which the participants seem to be getting nowhere, don't understand the subject and can't see the obvious. A prime example of this is the illegal-immigration controversy, and the folks making lots of noise are on conservative talk radio.
The conversations on the subject usually revolve around two main themes: The president has sold out his conservative base, and he is ignoring national security by allowing illegal aliens to swarm over the border. Tune in to any of the far-right talk shows, and you can hear variations on these two themes just about any day of the week.
About the only thing they're ever right about on this contentious subject is that if the U.S. government wanted to do something about illegal immigration, it could.
The truth, of course, is that the government doesn't want to do anything about it — and for good reason.
Our somewhat lax and paradoxical border policy is driven by something very basic: money and economics.
A decade ago, there was a big fuss in California when some concerned citizens decided that the illegal immigrants in their state were a big strain on the budget, and were draining billions of dollars from education and health care. The logic went that if the illegal aliens were stopped from sending their kids to school, and using free medicine, the state would save lots of money that it could then spend on its legal citizens.
An interesting thing happened next. Someone else did a follow-up study, and found that what the state saved in economic costs from the use of migrant labor in agriculture was over three times what it cost in health care and education to those same workers. In other words, illegal aliens were not costing the state a thing, but were instead saving the state tens of billions of dollars a year — and, at the same time, were keeping California's agricultural industry competitive with the rest of the world. The big fuss quietly went away and nothing much changed in California.
The right way to look at illegal immigration is with a pragmatic eye. Simple questions need to be asked: Are Americans willing to pay $4 instead of $1 for a head of lettuce? Do we really want to shore up the borders and then watch inflation grow rapidly? The big owners of agribusiness know the answer to these questions, as do the politicians they support.
So we're stuck with this silly issue that won't go away, and with people who talk tough, but really wouldn't want the situation to change if they realized what the true costs to our economy and society would be.
I think I'd even go one step further and speculate that not only do people in high places understand this issue very well, they've probably got it worked out so that the illegal immigration that is happening is happening in just the right amounts.
Consider how our Southern border is currently monitored: The Border Patrol stays close to the big cities and population centers, then thins out in rural areas and the desert. A coincidence? Doubtful. This policy effectively weeds out the weak and makes the trip tough enough that it discourages families and small children (bad for the U.S. economy), and makes the difficult passage overland a journey that mostly young males would be willing to risk (good for the U.S. economy).
In essence, you have a system that encourages the most desirable illegal immigrants, and discourages the rest. Americans then get the best of both worlds: cheap labor to do the backbreaking work that most in this society wouldn't want to do, and a competitive price for fresh fruits, vegetables and many other things dependent on manual labor.
As a bonus, if the "illegals" cause trouble, they can be deported without enjoying any of the rights a U.S. citizen would enjoy. It's really a pretty simple (if somewhat cynical) deal. And this president knows it, as do all the big ranchers, fruit farmers, grocers and restaurant owners who support him.
What's more, it would appear obvious, looking at recent history, that several presidents before George W. Bush figured out the same thing. To care about national security is to often make compromises. In this case, the angry voice of conservatives in his own party is the price this president pays for continuing a policy that, while difficult to actually articulate, really makes quite good sense.
Greg James of Seattle is the CEO of Topics Entertainment, a Washington-based software company. He majored in international studies at the University of Washington, with a focus on Latin America.
And yes you are right. Not only are the arguements (from Bush as Well) promoting anarchy, but preying on the miseries of people that have the misfortune to be born and live in a socialist pig sty called Mexico,
The later, more than likely. The former less than likely.
Depends on what your idea of "conservation" is. If it's saving the spotted owls, it's possible that is true.
What a lie!! We are supposed to believe that importing illiterate, American welfare-dependent, possibly diseased people from a failed third world country is the ONLY way to save America?
They'll never sell this whopper to Americans, because we know it's a lie.
The only way to discourage "the rest" is to cut off all benefits of American citizenship to ALL illegal aliens, build a wall, and actually ENFORCE EXISTING IMMIGRATION LAWS.
Protect our borders and coastlines from all foreign invaders!
Be Ever Vigilant!
Minutemen Patriots ~ Bump!
Yes, this is what we get from our media. They join with the democrats and fund these attack ads. They organize marches and bus sympathetic voters in. There are lots of "Americans of Hispanic descent" who are not friends of illegal immigration. But I bet they "take in " cousins who are new in country and help them find work too. In other words they realize we may all be better off with less legal immigration and zero illegal immigration but in the community they live in they stand unided against the native population whom they consider to be against them. This is how gangs infiltrate the hispanic communitities as well. In the privacy of the voting booth they may be opposed, but when peer pressure is present they cave.
True enough...
Our national message has to be, IMHO, that immigrants are welcome, but illegal immigrants will be treated as the criminals they are. A healthy immigration/guest worker (green card) program should be in place that is in keeping with our true nation needs, with the intent that those immigrating and looking to citizenship are assimilated as American citizens with an understanding of our laws, constitution and an ability to speak the language...otherwise, no citizenship. Such a program then needs to be strictly adhered to and inforced, with no amnesty or free pass for the ones already here illegally. The borders then need to be firmed up, controlled, and seriously patroled to prevent illegal entry.
As to the illegals themselves, IMHO, the answer is (new ones or older ones already here) to deport every one of them, place thier names and fingerprints on a list, and then make sure they know if they are caught illegally back in the country they will go to prison and spend a minimum of five years building those buildings, digging those ditches, harvesting those crops for free...before they again are deported with the message that the next infraction brings on a ten year sentence of the same.
Then, we need to have just as stiff an enforcement on those Americans who knowingly hire the illegals, stiffly fining them to begin with, and building on that depending on the nature and size of the infrction, to where they also serve time in the gray rock motel.
Such a program may be somewhat painful at first...but not nearly as painful as what is coming if we do not get a firm handle and control on this issue.
Just my opinion.
Pretty well reasoned opinion, Jeff. I like your idea of acknowledging that some level of need exists for the labor, but I wouldn't fix that before working to secure the borders...I'd do borders first and immigration quotas second.
That's the only difference I have with what you say.
You'll get no arguement from me on that.
Didn't think so!
IMHO, the illegals themselves, along with the rest of the world, are laughiing at such foolishness...and then capitalizing on it.
Our national message has to be, IMHO, that immigrants are welcome, but illegal immigrants will be treated as the criminals they are. A healthy immigration/guest worker (green card) program should be in place that is in keeping with our true nation needs, with the intent that those immigrating and looking to citizenship are assimilated as American citizens with an understanding of our laws, constitution and an ability to speak the language...otherwise, no citizenship.
Such a program then needs to be strictly adhered to and enforced (with enforcment coming first), with no amnesty or free pass for the ones already here illegally. The borders then need to be firmed up, controlled, and seriously patroled to prevent illegal entry.
As to eforcement and the illegals themselves, IMHO, the answer is (new ones or older ones already here) to deport every one of them, place thier names and fingerprints on a list, and then make sure they know if they are caught illegally back in the country they will go to prison and spend a minimum of five years building those buildings, digging those ditches, harvesting those crops for free...before they again are deported with the message that the next infraction brings on a ten year sentence of the same.
Then, we need to have just as stiff an enforcement on those Americans who knowingly hire the illegals, stiffly fining them to begin with, and building on that depending on the nature and size of the infrction, to where they also serve time in the gray rock motel.
Such a program may be somewhat painful at first...but not nearly as painful as what is coming if we do not get a firm handle and control on this issue.
Just my opinion.
Right, and then we all die of leprosy and Chagas, our entire southwest becomes Aztlan and whites are kicked out or killed, drugs and violent criminal gangs become more prevalent than they already are, terrorists are allowed in at will, healthcare costs skyrocket and more hospitals are shut down, our public education drowns in a quagmire, George Soros gets elected President because illegals can now vote and he's the main one pushing for this, the U.S. becomes the third world from overpopulation, somebody here illegally who's stolen my social security number isn't trying to get a job/house/car in my name or on my credit, etc. etc. etc.
I can't believe this was actually posted. I want Borderless Bush impeached for the way that he has deserted America on this issue. I'll pay extra for lettuce that I know hasn't touched hands that were infested with trypanosome. I'll pay more to have my lawn cut or my deck powerwashed if I know that the people who do it aren't going to kill me later for my skin color.
The only reason that Borderless Bush isn't doing anything about this is that he's afraid of offending Hispanics and his buddies in corporate America who want to hire cheap labor at the expense of public safety. I can't believe I voted for the man twice. He really put one over on me and the rest of America. Or Los Estados Unidos d'Americo, as it will be known after his term. Then he'll go down to Mexico and be Vicente Fox's V.P.
I post many items (possibly 10% of all that I post) with which I don't personally agree, but I put them up for the discussion value. Same MO as when Rush Limbaugh (and also Sean Hannity and many others) invite or actively solicit liberal screamers onto their shows. It reveals what they ARE, and it gives conservatives "fodder" with which to develop good, educated counter arguments.
If all we ever posted on FR were items with which 99% of us agree, then it would be preaching to the choir. Opposition arguments (articles) sharpen our debating skills!
Thanks for your remarks. The grim scenario that you paint can indeed become the reality in America, if something effective is not done........and fairly soon.
Char
As for the Government. The members of the DEA,FBI etc etc are just as comlicit as the employers. It is their job to protect the American Constitution, not aid and abet the anarchist (all of them) that are working to destroy it.
I'm sorry for the poor choice of words. I think what I meant to say was written. It's a sad day when the Seattle Times agrees with our Republican President.
Tancredo/Miller '08
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