Joking Pilots in Commuter Jet Crash Wanted to 'have a Little Fun' by Climbing to 41,000 Feet

AP ^ | AP-ES-06-13-05 1117EDT

[TheOtherOne]

Joking Pilots in Commuter Jet Crash Wanted to 'have a Little Fun' by Climbing to 41,000 Feet

By Leslie Miller Associated Press Writer
Published: Jun 13, 2005 WASHINGTON (AP) - Two pilots, in a jovial mood as they flew an empty commuter jet, wanted to "have a little fun" by taking the plane to an unusually high altitude last October, only to realize as the engines failed that they were not going to make it, according to transcripts released Monday.

The plane, which the two were ferrying from Little Rock, Ark. to Minneapolis, crashed and both Capt. Jesse Rhodes and First Officer Peter Cesarz perished.

The cockpit voice recording, released by the National Transportation Safety Board at the start of a three-day hearing into the Oct. 14, 2004 accident, revealed how the pilots cracked jokes and decided to "have a little fun" and fly to 41,000 feet - the maximum altitude for their 50-seat plane. Most commuter jets fly at lower altitudes.

"Man, we can do it, 41-it," said Cesarz at 9:48 p.m. A minute later, Rhodes said, "40 thousand, baby."

Two minutes later, "There's 41-0, my man," Cesarz said. "Made it, man."

At 9:52 p.m., one of the pilots popped a can of Pepsi and they joked about drinking beer. A minute later, Cesarz said, "This is the greatest thing, no way."

But at 10:03 p.m., the pilots reported their engine had failed. Five minutes later, they said both engines had failed and they wanted a direct route to any airport.

The transcript recounts their increasingly desperate efforts to restart the engines and regain altitude. They tried to land at the Jefferson City, Mo., airport but by 10:14 p.m., it was obvious they wouldn't reach it.

"We're not going to make it, man. We're not going to make it," Cesarz said. The plane crashed in a residential neighborhood of Jefferson City. No one was injured on the ground.

Accident investigators are examining how well the pilots were trained - a key safety question as the number of regional jets keeps growing.

The crash involved a Bombardier regional jet plane operated by Pinnacle Airlines, an affiliate of Northwest Airlines. Like many regional carriers, Pinnacle is growing rapidly as it teams up with a traditional network airline looking to offer more seats to more places.

Memphis, Tenn.-based Pinnacle grew by 700 percent in the past five years, according to Phil Reed, its marketing vice president. During that time, it switched its fleet from propeller-driven planes to small turbojets, known as regional jets, or RJs.

The number of regional jets rose to 1,630 last year from 570 in 2000, the Federal Aviation Administration says. The question of whether government safety inspectors can keep up with such rapid changes in the airline industry was raised last week in a Transportation Department inspector general's report.

Jet engines work differently at higher altitudes, and it's unclear whether the relatively inexperienced Pinnacle pilots were aware that they had to be more careful in the thin air at 41,000 feet, the maximum altitude for their plane.

According to FAA transcripts of air-to-ground conversations, an air traffic controller in Kansas City told the two pilots it was rare to see the plane flying that high.

"Yeah, we're actually ... we don't have any passengers on board, so we decided to have a little fun and come up here," one of the pilots said. The transcripts don't identify whether Jesse Rhodes or Cesarz made the statement.

First one, then the other engine shut down. The last contact that controllers had with the crew was at 9,000 feet, when the pilot reported an airport beacon in sight.

At the hearing, NTSB investigators plan to delve into the plane's flight limits and the proper recovery techniques when engines fail. They also want to know if the pilots knew those procedures and to learn the engine's performance characteristics at high altitudes.

On June 2, the FAA issued a special bulletin clarifying what steps pilots need to take to restart an engine when there's a dual engine failure, agency spokeswoman Laura Brown said.

David Stempler, president of the Air Travelers Association, said the issue may be reckless pilots rather than inadequate training or improper recovery procedures.

"This is more a story of pilots having time on their hands and playing with things in the cockpit that they shouldn't," he said.

Flying, he said, is as boring as truck driving most of the time.

"This was boredom and experimentation, these guys experimenting with things they had no business doing," Stempler said.

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On the Net:

National Transportation Safety Board: http://www.ntsb.gov

AP-ES-06-13-05 1117EDT

[Blood of Tyrants]

NOW they tell us!!

[TheOtherOne]

Thanks for adding that.

[Monterrosa-24]

Yep. One thing that earmarks Free Republic is that folks toss around insults a bit too easily with little respect for the value of life. People make mistakes but the bell tolls for us all.

[safisoft]

Pilots that push limits are stupid pilots. A good pilot is trained to go up to the limit (military) or to not go near them (civilian) unless under specific circumstances.

Again, you have no idea what you are talking about. Only a STUPID pilot would think that going to the manufacturer's max altitude on a day when they can maintain 1.3 gs would think that it is "pushing the limits". Geez. You have no idea how many commercial aircraft you have been on that were flying at the publish max altitude - or in your mind, "pushing the limits".

[Netheron]

Would Chuck Yeager count as an old bold pilot?

[Dead Dog]

Whatever happend, it is good they did this now, than on a revenue flight where FL 41 was actually needed.

[Alas Babylon!]

Pukin Dog is a retired Navy fighter pilot and now a civilian air captain. He might be wrong, but he does know what he's talking about.

[safisoft]

Whatever happend, it is good they did this now, than on a revenue flight where FL 41 was actually needed.

Ah, finally some logic on this silly thread. Instead of assuming the crew were idiots, maybe there is something that needs to be uncovered in this... and this may be it. I'll bet anyone that very shortly an AD will be issued for the Candair that says the new max cruise is FL390.

[BurbankKarl]

I was going to say, most Mil Air planes I listen to rarely are above 36k

[Dashing Dasher]

Bold = Fearless and daring; courageous.

I think Chuck Yeager knows fear - but also knows his abilities and falls back on his experiences and training. He is courageous - but not in a bad sense.

Personally, I believe that - training and courage trump fear.

The "bold pilot" in the often heard saying (old/bold pilots) are the untrained, risk takers, thrill seekers - they aren't the highly trained agressive pilots who take well calculated risks to push the envelope.

[safisoft]

Pukin Dog is a retired Navy fighter pilot and now a civilian air captain. He might be wrong, but he does know what he's talking about.

I strongly disagree, if he is wrong on this, then he doesn't know what he is talking about. I don't care who he claims to be.

I'll bet there are Delta pilots every day that take the B777 to max cruise. I know that there are Boeing 757 and 737 pilots at Delta that go to max cruise every day... Because I hear them check in at those altitudes - and so has he... so he is full of bunk.

[Dashing Dasher]

Pukin Dog is a retired Navy fighter pilot and now a civilian air captain. He might be wrong, but he does know what he's talking about.


Yeah - but is he cute?

;-)

[Nathan Zachary]

I'm thinking mechanical flaw as well. it's darn cold up there, so when you loose the flame that thing cools down rapidly from internal operating temps to -60 in seconds. different metals shrink at different rates, bearings and bushings can seize Any engineering flaws will show up in a hurry.

Or, maybe these guys just didn't know how to restart those engines. You can bet every single piece of those engines will be looked at under a microscope until they find the cause.

[Deguello]

"engine never went out on him?"

I guess that he knew nothing other than dead stick landings.

[OKIEDOC]

Yes, I well remember those days with Orville and Wilbur.

My first combat against the dreaded Red Barron.

Shooting down the first kamikaze.

Yes, those were the days.

Off we go into the wild blue yonder

Off we go............

[rahbert]

and call Dewey Cheatham and Howe...

[Broker]

"Orville and Wilbur", HAH ! Much more like Cheech and Chong. Cool dead dudes.

[Dashing Dasher]

Off we go into the wild blue yonder,
Climbing high into the sun;

Here they come zooming to meet our thunder,
At 'em boys, Give 'er the gun! (Give 'er the gun now!)

Down we dive, spouting our flame from under,
Off with one helluva roar!

We live in fame or go down in flame. Hey!
Nothing'll stop the U.S. Air Force!

Second verse?

[kcvl]

Thank God they didn't kill anyone else.

[GOP_Muzik]

this is what i was thinking. I've been out of aviation for many years now (A&P and a CFii) but i can't think of many modern commercial jet engines that can't handle 41k with ease, in many cases it is the airframe that limits max. ceiling. If the airplane was rated at 41k it should be capable of reaching 5-10k above it's rated max. without flameout. I've taken a KingAir above its max a few times to avoid major storms and the PT6's never hiccuped, but there were a few groans from the airframe. I do know that very large turbofans lower flameout altitude, but I don't think this engine falls into that category.

I just find this odd, but i could be very wrong.