Jefferson/Madison/Franklin Hated God ! ?

none | may 26 2005 | Vanity post

[Para-Ord.45]

Having a go round with an atheist who flung this at me.

Can anyone expound on the overall context and meaning ?

I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"--John Adams in a letter to Thomas Jefferson

"But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legaends, hae been blended with both Jewish and Chiistian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed.--John Adams in a letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816, _2000_Years_of_Disbelief_, John A. Haught

"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole carloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity." --John Adams

Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."--Benjamin Franklin, _Poor_Richard_, 1758

"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason."--Benjamin Franklin, _Poor_Richard_, 1758

"I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it." -- Benjamin Franklin, _Articles_Of_Belief_and_Acts_of_Religion_, Nov.20, 1728

"I wish it (Christianity) were more productive of good works ... I mean real good works ... not holy day keeping, sermon-hearing ... or making long prayers, filled with flatteries and compliments despised by wise men, and much less capable of pleasing the Deity." -- Benjamin Franklin , _Works_ Vol.VII, p.75

"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects of Christianity, we shall find few that have not in turns been persecutors and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution on the Roman church, but preactied i on the Puritans. They found it wrong in Bishops, but fell into the practice both here (England) and in New England"--Benjamin Franklin, _Poor_Richard_, 1758

"When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one." -- Benjamin Franklin, _2000_Years_of_Disbelief_ by James A. Haught

"Religion I found to be without any tendency to inspire, promote, or confirm morality, serves principally to divide us and make us unfriendly to one another."--Benjamin Franklin

Thomas Jefferson

"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are serviley crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God, because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blind faith." -- Thomas Jefferson

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."--Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Association on Jan. 1, 1802, _The_Writings_of_Thomas_Jefferson_Memorial_Edition_, edited by Lipscomb and Bergh, 1903-04, 16:281

"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."--Thomas Jefferson, _Notes_on_Virginia_, _Jefferson_the_President:_First_Term_1801-1805_, Dumas Malon, Boston: Little Brown and Company, 1970, p. 191

"...no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship ministry or shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief, but all men shall be free to profess and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise.. affect their civil capacities."--Thomas Jefferson, _Statute_for_Religious_Freedom_, 1779, _The_Papers_of_Thomas_Jefferson_, edited by Julron P. Boyd, 1950, 2:546

[mugs99]

Mugs, according to you America was deist

No, the small group of men who took matters into their own hands and engineered the rebellion were. Two thirds of the Christians were loyal to the king. If they would have fought for the king instead of sitting it out the rebellion would have failed.

And finally, I understand that Washington didn't mean what he wrote, he meant what you wanted him to mean. Such is life in 21st Century America.

The prayer post was dishonest then? That doubles my concern. You knowingly used a propaganda technique to advance the revisionist cause. Why?
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[rock58seg]

I was making a comparison of values, not advocating a new religion. In fact I thought I was making an argument for Less is more.

[mugs99]

Your god isn't the God of providence therefore your god isn't the God of America's Framers

Sorry, you lost me. If you're going to put words in my mouth, at least make a point.
If you're referring to me personally because I'm a Deist, my point of view is that there is only one God. I realize you have three and that is ok with me. A Deist just doesn't care how many Gods you have or what you do with your crotch or appetite. It's a live and let live thing.
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[restornu]

I think their were many that would have allowed the slaves to incorporate but the climate was not ready......

how many of us want to do away with abortion but it is still a hard nut to crack!

[mugs99]

Very true.

[7thson]

Actually, reading what Franklin said, to me, does not show he as not believing in God. In fact, I took it to mean that man, not God, causes the problems.

[7thson]

Actually, reading what Franklin said, to me, does not show he as not believing in God. In fact, I took it to mean that man, not God, causes the problems.

[Pelayo]

Nothing you've written refutes my point on libertarian principles.

I suppose not, but still I can see how someone could get the impression that as a libertarian i.e. classical liberal, I support authoritarian government, because I a way I do. I just support a seemingly contradictory limited authoritarian system.

[k2blader]

Most excellent!

Thank you, TJ.

[Pelayo]

Two thirds of the Christians were loyal to the king. If they would have fought for the king instead of sitting it out the rebellion would have failed.

Theoretically slavery would have ended in this country sooner then. Although, in that case, we probably would have had a rebellion against the cruel king who's courts would take away our slaves, instead of the cruel king who's parliament wanted to tax us a little.

[mugs99]

Sure, but it could also have worked out that slavery would have remained profitable to the king and lasted longer.
Slave sales were taxed and the king got his share.
Slave labor also allowed the king to levy higher taxes on growers than he would have been able to if they had to pay wages.
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[Pelayo]

Except that the anti-slavery movement England was already into high swing at the time of the revolution. Indeed it was a criticism of the colonist that they should demand some nebulous concept of personal liberty while holding slaves.

[mugs99]

Except that the anti-slavery movement England was already into high swing at the time of the revolution

Yes, but that was a matter of economics. People were out of work in England and slave labor competed with them. I don't think the king would have given up the income from the slave labor in the American colonies.
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[ChicagoHebrew]

John Adams, member of the Continental Congress, 2nd President of the United States, Vice President To the United States, Commissioner to France, US Ambassador to England: On March 6, 1789, President Adams called for a national day of fasting and prayer so that the nation might "call to mind the numerous offenses against the most high God, confess them before Him with the sincerest penitence, implore his pardoning mercy, through the Great Mediator and Redeemer, for our past transgression, and that through the grace of His Holy Spirit, we may be disposed and enabled to yield a more suitable obedience.."

John Adams wanted all Americans to celebrate Yom Kippur?

[Ohioan]

The Founding Fathers, including those whom you quote, were devout in their belief in the Creator. They were not however, devotees of particular sects--neither the ones in which they were raised nor others. They were skeptical not of God, the Creator, but of the verbalized dogma of the Clergy.

Jefferson and Adams conducted a very interesting correspondence--after they patched up their political differences, as ex-Presidents--on theological questions. But throughout their writings, there are acknowledgements of God and his Blessings on America. Those who try to picture them as haters of religion can only see the trees right in front of them. They miss the entire forest of neglected theological questions, and really are in no position to debate the Founders.

Remember, these were the men who attributed every principle to God. The Men, who before God, pledged to our cause their "lives, their fortunes and their sacred honor." And by their actions, they proved that they meant every word of it.

William Flax Return Of The Gods Web Site

[Ohioan]

They were not Libertarian in that they believed virtue mattered. They were not liberals in that they believed government was more of the problem than the answer. They were way more small gov't than most contemporary conservatives, but they probably believed in more local government on social issues than liberals or libertarians care to acknowledge. They believed in ordered liberty and natural law.

Where do you get the idea that there is a conflict with libertarian views and the belief that virtue matters? Quite the contrary. The whole point of emphasizing virtue, in their writings, was that they believed in the libertarian view of man; that man has free will, and must be held responsible for his conduct; in a system of responsibility and accountability.

As a contemporary Conservative, I certainly do not believe in "big government." The least is the best.

As to local government and social issues? See Jefferson's Chapter in his book, on Welfare. He did not advocate Governmental involvement in dealing with poverty. He highly praised the method of the time, for dealing with genuine want, which was Church not civilly directed. I believe that it is in the following Chapter in the Debate Handbook, where it is quoted: Chapter One--Conservative Debate Handbook.

William Flax

[little jeremiah]

Moral Absolutes.

Interesting discussion going on with lots of quotes being tossed here and there. More about the Founding Fathers and what they did or did believe and espouse.

I know, it's kind of late to the party, but I always find this sort of thread interesting, especially because of the "wall of separation" thing. I think it is crystal clear to all who really want to know the truth what they F. Fathers thought and meant by what they said. They would all, to a man, be revolted and horrified to see what's become of their experiment. Especially in the realm of the forcible exclusion of religious expression from public life, and the enthronement of hellish libertinism as the state dogma.

Let me know if you want on/off this pinglist.

[mother22wife21]

bookmarking for later read

[Antoninus]

Jefferson's letter to Benjamin Rush:

Letter To Dr. Benjamin Rush.

Washington, April 21, 1803.

DEAR SIR,

In some of the delightful conversations with you in the evenings of 1798-99, and which served as an anodyne to the afflictions of the crisis through which our country was then laboring, the Christian religion was sometimes our topic; and I then promised you that one day or other I would give you my views of it. They are the result of a life of inquiry and reflection, and very different from that anti-Christian system imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity I am indeed opposed, but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished anyone to be: sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference to all others, ascribing to himself every human excellence, and believing he never claimed any other. At the short interval since these conversations, when I could justifiably abstract my mind from public affairs, the subject has been under my contemplation. But the more I considered it, the more it expanded beyond the measure of either my time or information. In the moment of my late departure from Monticello, I received from Dr. Priestley his little treatise of "Socrates and Jesus Compared." This being a section of the general view I had taken of the field, it became a subject of reflection while on the road and unoccupied otherwise. The result was, to arrange in my mind a syllabus or outline of such an estimate of the comparative merits of Christianity as I wished to see executed by someone of more leisure and information for the task than myself. This I now send you as the only discharge of my promise I can probably ever execute. And in confiding it to you, I know it will not be exposed to the malignant perversions of those who make every word from me a text for new misrepresentations and calumnies. I am moreover averse to the communication of my religious tenets to the public, because it would countenance the presumption of those who have endeavored to draw them before that tribunal, and to seduce public opinion to erect itself into that inquisition over the rights of conscience which the laws have so justly proscribed. It behooves every man who values liberty of conscience for himself, to resist invasions of it in the case of others; or their case may, by change of circumstances, become his own. It behooves him, too, in his own case, to give no example of concession, betraying the common right of independent opinion, by answering questions of faith which the laws have left between God and himself. Accept my affectionate salutations.

Th: Jefferson

My opinion--C.S. Lewis would have had a field day with Thomas Jefferson's opinions of Christ.

[Antoninus]

"Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever." --Th. Jefferson

If ol' Tom came onto FR and made that statement, you'd have a considerable number of posters calling him a Taliban-wannabe.