Was World War II worth it? (Buchanan barf alert)

WorldNetDaily ^ | May 11, 2005 | Patrick J. Buchanan

[EveningStar]

If the objective of the West was the destruction of Nazi Germany, it was a "smashing" success. But why destroy Hitler? If to liberate Germans, it was not worth it. After all, the Germans voted Hitler in.

If it was to keep Hitler out of Western Europe, why declare war on him and draw him into Western Europe? If it was to keep Hitler out of Central and Eastern Europe, then, inevitably, Stalin would inherit Central and Eastern Europe.

Was that worth fighting a world war – with 50 million dead?

[SJackson]

Uh, no. I'm quite aware of the evils of communism. What I fail to understand is why some have difficulty grasping the evils of authoritarian fascism, and minimize these evils as compared to communism.

Fascism, especially the aryan and pseudo-aryan (not like lots of the supporters are aryan), aka white nationalist kind, is that a bad thing?

[SJackson]

I think he's trying to tell you that George Herbert Walker Bush was not elected to a second presidential term in 1992. Instead, a piece of filth named clinton was elected to its first term of office.

At least someone figured it out.

What do you think, would things have been different if we'd let the Dukesters in?

[Petronski]

Buchanan trips over good concepts to stay idiotic and, yes, Jew-hostile things.

"Why destroy Hitler?"


Good grief!

[iconoclast]

Writing of "group fantasies of martyrdom," Buchanan challenged the historical record that thousands of Jews were gassed to death by diesel exhaust at Treblinka: "Diesel engines do not emit enough carbon monoxide to kill anybody."

Diesel engine emissions are outside of my purview.

BTW, I take it you gave me the first point.

[ArrogantBustard]

Uh, no. I'm quite aware of the evils of communism.

So, then, you'd agree that selling out eastern Europe to Stalin at Yalta was a bad thing, right? You'd agree that letting Mao take over China was a bad thing, right? You might even agree that the various Stalinist revolutionaries in South America and Africa were also bad people, right?

I've little interest in further highlighting the evils of National Socialism. Many others do a far better job of it, and I'll leave them to their work. I will, however, not cease to highlight the manifold evils of international Communism, particularly when so many seem to want to ignore or cover up those evils. I will furthermore not cease to point out that National Socialism and international Communism are diseased peas out of the same blighted pod.

If you think that pointing out the evil committed and facilitated at Yalta constitutes "difficulty grasping the evils of authoritarian fascism", you have problems I can't help you with.

[familyop]

"So am I to gather that you condone discrimination against white people?"

Patty said, "Take a hard look at Duke's portfolio of winning issues..." Buchanan called Duke's "portfolio," one of "winning issues." It's already obvious that you're in favor of it, but just to make it perfectly clear,...

We see by your date that you're new here. And from what I've seen over the past few months (the least of which was Joseph's publishing of Pat's pro-Nazi trash) you will be welcome.

[iconoclast]

I can get Pat's whole article for you if you need it.

I feel no need for it, neither do I intend to stay up much later with you.

Wouldn't be here now, but I'm hanging in with the Pistons.

[ArrogantBustard]

would things have been different if we'd let the Dukesters in?

Things would surely have been different. I might have joined the Libertarian Party ... I tolerate a lot of crap from the RNC, but embracing Duke would have been too much.

At the time, I was glad I had not attended Duke University. I like wearing my college shirts.

[Peach]

I saw that you agreed with Pat's comment that Capitol Hill is Israeli-occupied territory. And you're calling me names? LOL


Buchanan referred to Capitol Hill as "Israeli-occupied territory."
(St. Louis Post Dispatch, 10/20/90)

During the Gulf crisis: "There are only two groups that are beating
the drums for war in the Middle East -- the Israeli defense ministry and
its 'amen corner' in the United States." ("McLaughlin Group," 8/26/90)

In a 1977 column, Buchanan said that despite Hitler's anti-Semitic and
genocidal tendencies, he was "an individual of great courage...Hitler's
success was not based on his extraordinary gifts alone. His genius was an
intuitive sense of the mushiness, the character flaws, the weakness
masquerading as morality that was in the hearts of the statesmen who stood
in his path." (The Guardian, 1/14/92)

Writing of "group fantasies of martyrdom," Buchanan challenged the
historical record that thousands of Jews were gassed to death by diesel
exhaust at Treblinka: "Diesel engines do not emit enough carbon monoxide
to kill anybody." (New Republic, 10/22/90) Buchanan's columns have run in
the Liberty Lobby's Spotlight, the German-American National PAC newsletter
and other publications that claim Nazi death camps are a Zionist
concoction.

Buchanan called for closing the U.S. Justice Department's Office of
Special Investigations, which prosecuted Nazi war criminals, because it was
"running down 70-year-old camp guards." (New York Times, 4/21/87)

Buchanan was vehement in pushing President Reagan -- despite protests
-- to visit Germany's Bitburg cemetery, where Nazi SS troops were buried.
At a White House meeting, Buchanan reportedly reminded Jewish leaders that
they were "Americans first" -- and repeatedly scrawled the phrase
"Succumbing to the pressure of the Jews" in his notebook. Buchanan was
credited with crafting Ronald Reagan's line that the SS troops buried at
Bitburg were "victims just as surely as the victims in the concentration
camps." (New York Times, 5/16/85; New Republic, 1/22/96)

After Cardinal O'Connor criticized anti-Semitism during the
controversy over construction of a convent near Auschwitz, Buchanan wrote:
"If U.S. Jewry takes the clucking appeasement of the Catholic cardinalate
as indicative of our submission, it is mistaken. When Cardinal O'Connor of
New York seeks to soothe the always irate Elie Wiesel by reassuring him
'there are many Catholics who are anti-Semitic'...he speaks for himself. Be
not afraid, Your Eminence; just step aside, there are bishops and priests
ready to assume the role of defender of the faith." (New Republic,
10/22/90)

The Buchanan '96 campaign's World Wide Web site included an article
blaming the death of White House aide Vincent Foster on the Israeli
intelligence agency, Mossad -- and alleging that Foster and Hillary
Clinton were Mossad spies. (The campaign removed the article after its
existence was reported by a Jewish on-line news service; Jewish Telegraphic
Agency, 2/21/96.)

In his September 1993 speech to the Christian Coalition, Buchanan
declared: "Our culture is superior. Our culture is superior because our
religion is Christianity and that is the truth that makes men free." (ADL
Report, 1994)

[KidGlock]

Yeah, I will have to catch up to you on the next Buchanan thread.

My wife in bed beats any Pat Buchanan discussion.

BTW, I take it you conceeded defeat on the deisel fuel comment?

[malakhi]

So, then, you'd agree that selling out eastern Europe to Stalin at Yalta was a bad thing, right?

It was a bad thing, but all Yalta did was recognize the facts on the ground. We weren't about to keep marching east.

You'd agree that letting Mao take over China was a bad thing, right?

We "let" Mao take over China? What makes you think we had any say in the matter?

You might even agree that the various Stalinist revolutionaries in South America and Africa were also bad people, right?

Stalinist revolutionaries are bad people.

But not everyone who opposes authoritarian regimes is a Stalinist revolutionary.

If you think that pointing out the evil committed and facilitated at Yalta constitutes "difficulty grasping the evils of authoritarian fascism", you have problems I can't help you with.

I'm familiar with the coterie of Franco and Pinochet apologists on FR. And I disagree with them. Fascism is not an acceptable alternative to communism. And we shouldn't coddle dictators just because they are anti-communist.

[iconoclast]

don't come back to me with the bull shit that Demjanjuk wasn't a camp guard, every court that's looked at him in the US and Israel has said he was.

I don't believe I denied he was a (very young) camp guard.

Does that make him one of Hitler's right hand men? Where does your kind of everlasting anger and hate cease?

I think my question of of your agenda is pertinent.

[ArrogantBustard]

And we shouldn't coddle dictators just because they are anti-communist.

Should we ally ourselves with dictators just because they are anti-National Socialist?

[HallowThisGround]

My guess, GWB didn't open up a very big can of worms.

It was Buchanan who opened the can of worms.

And one other thing. Buchanan said, "True, U.S. and British troops liberated France, Holland and Belgium from Nazi occupation. But before Britain declared war on Germany, France, Holland and Belgium did not need to be liberated. They were free. They were only invaded and occupied after Britain and France declared war on Germany – on behalf of Poland." Come on Pat! Do you really think Hilter would have left them alone without intervention? Somehow Pat forgot that Alsace/Lorraine had been disputed territory between France and Germany for centuries prior to WWII, and just as the Sudetenland drew Hitler to Czechlosovakia, these would have drawn him to France. And with a Vichy government unencumbered by a resistance supported underground by a strong Allied presence in Europe, France would have been firmly placed within Hitler's permanent grasp.

When Pat throws out historical facts, I am regularly amazed at the brilliance and at the same time shocked that the brilliance of the messenger blinds himself. What an amazing thing to behold.

Pat, we love you as a person, but you've got to come to your senses before we count you among the senile.

[quadrant]

Look, I don't like Europeans and sometime I'd like to flush the whole lot of them. But the United States could not during WWII nor can it now allow the European peninsula to fall under the control of a despotic government whose aims are hostile to that of the United States.
If a hostile government gained control of Europe, then the strategic position of the US would be weakened gravely.

[M. Espinola]

Most conservatives have to admit Pat Buchanan has a well known mental problem with the Jewish people and the state of Israel but now he has gone completely off the deep end with his latest comments concerning Bush' speech in Latvia concerning the end of World War Two.

It's true that Stalin's Red Russia brutally gobbled up the Baltic states and Eastern Europe resulting from Yalta, but for Pat to totally discount the very real threat Hitler's Berlin Nazi regimé poised to the entire world is absolutely ludicrous.

"But why destroy Hitler?"

"-was World War II worth it?"

Nazis in Latvia

[malakhi]

And we shouldn't coddle dictators just because they are anti-communist.

Should we ally ourselves with dictators just because they are anti-National Socialist?

Does the one imply the other to you?

[iconoclast]

We all know Pat Buchanan's agenda.

I guess we should ask you what yours is.

1) My tag line.

2) I'm a Pat backer all the way.

He is the greatest (one of the few) conservative after the hallowed RR.

He is a man of the people and at the same time an intellectual out of the mold of Russell Kirk.

If he has a fault, it is a disposition to hyperbole.

PS .. I doubt you know Mr. Buchanan's agenda, or much of anything else for that matter.

[SJackson]

I don't believe I denied he was a (very young) camp guard....Does that make him one of Hitler's right hand men? Where does your kind of everlasting anger and hate cease?...I think my question of of your agenda is pertinent.

Of course he lied. That's why he was deported. We don't prosecute war crimes here, we deport people who who lie to get into this country.

My agenda? hate?

That's come up in two contexts in the last week, I'll address both.

The first, we don't allow concentration camp guards and most members of the SS in this country. There's no statute of limitations. They lie on entry, and Pat's boys did, they get thrown out. No matter the age. Don't like it, change the law, don't imply that I hate.

The second, the Emmet Till murder. Yes, kill a black kid, go to jail. No statuet of limitations, so I don't care how much time passes.

Don't like it, tough, that's my agenda, and not only isn't it hate, but it conforms to the laws of the United States. That's my agenda. Instead of making excuses, write your congressman and get the laws changed.

[ArrogantBustard]

We allied ourselves with Stalin; we supplied his armies with food and munitions at great expense both in monetary terms, and in terms of lives lost to German U-Boat attacks on the Murmansk shipping runs.

1) Was Josef Stalin anything other that a bloodthirsty dictator?

2) Did we ally ourselves with him for any reason other that that he was anti-National Socialist?

If you're going to object to 'coddling' anti-communist dictators, I'd expect (as a matter of intellectual honesty) that you'd object to outright alliance with anti-National Socialist dictators.