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To the proponents of Creationism a/k/a Intelligent Design, I once again offer the following challenge: Other than your religious faith and your criticisms of the Theory of Evolution, please provide at least one objective piece of evidence to support your view. Again, I'm not interested in your religious beliefs or Genesis or any other Biblical verse. Nor do I care about the negatives of Evolution. Just identify the positive evidence in support of your position.

Please note that I have issued this challenge on several threads, but have only received a single reply from a person who could not follow directions.

*Ping.*

BTW, I've tried this myself, although face to face, not on line, and so far haven't had any response but doubletalk.

You are asking for "objective" evidence of a supernatural event?

Why not take it on faith like we have to with macro-evolution? You know as well as I that evolution is taught as fact in schools when it is not fact - it is a theory that attempts to codify "scientific" observations. Many of these observations are not factual and some have even been recanted by science - yet they remain part of the logic that produced the theory. That is NOT objective science.

Creationism isn't currently being taught in public schools and thus are being required to prove the validity of the "theory". Darwinism is being taught and never went through this process of providing proof to be added to curriculums. Why the different standards?

I am a creationist that firmly believes in micro-evolution (according to its "kind"). Though I doubt all of it is in direct contradiction with the Bible, macro-evolutionary theory has yet to provide provable answers.

At what point do we finally admit to school kids that Darwinism is only a theory and there are other theories?

please provide at least one objective piece of evidence to support your view.

Bioengineering. In other words, if man can do it surely it is possible that somebody or something else could do it. ID is a fact, we can do it, we can observe it, we can repeat it. Adaptation and mutation are facts. We can observe them as well.

To accept one and not the other or the possibility of the other in the face of common sense seems kind of silly to me.

. . . please provide at least one objective piece of evidence to support your view . . .

How about whale bones in the desert as evidence for a world wide deluge?

Please note that I have issued this challenge on several threads, but have only received a single reply from a person who could not follow directions.

Perhaps when you stop hiding behind could not follow directions as a straw man to weasel out of admitting when valid evidence is presented to you, people will take you seriously. Until then, you're just an idealogue.

The same hand cuffs you place on Creationist in the way you pose your question and your rules regarding what you will accept for an answer, can fit just as well on Evolutionists. I can demand the same "objective evidence" from you, throwing out any interest in your science books, flawed carbon dating system, and your "faith" in the infallibility of scientific observation, methodology, and scientific opinion.

What Creationists are demanding is more honesty regarding the fallibility of the methods science uses to base and measure their findings. For instance, how did crystals trap 218 Po without the parent uranium halo? The polonium isotope has a half life of only three minutes, yet it is found trapped inside crystals.

The lava flow that ran into the Grand Canyon measures older than the bottom of the Grand Canyon which is impossible. Science seems to be stuck in a situation in which all data must be shoved, tweaked, and molded to fit into a preconceived paradigm. That is what is being called on the carpet, and the answers have not been forth coming.

To the proponents of Creationism a/k/a Intelligent Design, I once again offer the following challenge: Other than your religious faith and your criticisms of the Theory of Evolution, please provide at least one objective piece of evidence to support your view.

There is no evidence...that is precisely why it is called FAITH. If there were objective evidence, it could no longer be called FAITH.

Hope this helps.

"To the proponents of Creationism a/k/a Intelligent Design, I once again offer the following challenge: Other than your religious faith and your criticisms of the Theory of Evolution, please provide at least one objective piece of evidence to support your view. Again, I'm not interested in your religious beliefs or Genesis or any other Biblical verse. Nor do I care about the negatives of Evolution. Just identify the positive evidence in support of your position.
Please note that I have issued this challenge on several threads, but have only received a single reply from a person who could not follow directions."

I'd like to present my evidence as NDE's.

Let me say first that both camps are basing their beliefs on "faith"!

Since none of us can go back in time to prove our theory of why we believe what we do...how about going forward to what happens to us after we die?

Now for those of you who believe in TOE this shouldn't be a hard task for you because you believe everything changes over time...life continues after our body dies! We just have a different form of body then what we have now.

For those of us that believe in God & the Bible we know to sort out the NDE's from the truth and the lies. As some of the NDE's don't line up with what the Bible tells us to be true, but this is for another time & place.

For all the lurkers on this subject who may confused as to what to believe...I suggest you do a lot of research before you blindly accept TOE as the truth. Your eternal life is at stake.

TOE has so many holes in it that it puts a piece of Swiss Cheese to shame.

I'm not writing this to the hard core TOE's because their mindset is not changeable, this is for those of you who are fence sitters. Please forget what you've been "taught" and use your own minds.

I blame TOE for what we see happening to our kids today. They believe it's just "survival of the fittest" and what they can get today that matters. They don't know they have eternal lives in either Heaven or Hell.

For those interested here's a few researchers and some of the books that have been written. ---------------------------------------------------------- These authors provide a wide range of viewpoints on the NDE and its implications.

P.M.H. Atwater, Lh.D., is a three-time near-death survivor and a near-death researcher.

Mally Cox-Chapman is a Yale political science graduate who has written for Time-Life books and other national publications.

Judith Cressey, Doctor of Ministry in theology and counseling, has conducted NDE workshops for hospitals.

Evelyn Elsaesser Valarino is head of the law library at the University of Geneva.

Bruce Greyson, M.D., is a professor of psychiatric medicine at the University of Virginia Health Sciences Center, Charlottesville, VA.

Carl Jung, Ph.D, was a pioneer researcher in psychology who had an NDE before there was a label for them.

Yvonne Kason, M.D., is an Assistant Professor in the Department of Family and Community Medicine at the University of Toronto and is on the staff of three Toronto teaching hospitals.

Pamela M. Kircher, M.D., had a near-death experience in her youth and has worked as a family practice physician, a hospice physician and as a clinical instructor at Baylor College of Medicine.

Elizabeth Kübler-Ross, M.D., is an internationally known thanatologist who pioneered the field of death and dying.

Craig Lundahl, Ph.D., is chairman emeritus of the Department of Social Sciences at Western New Mexico University.

Raymond Moody, M.D., Ph.D., defined the phrase "near-death experience" in his 1975 seminal work, Life After Life.

Melvin Morse, M.D., is a Seattle pediatrician and medical professor who has researched NDEs in children.

Maurice Rawlings, M.D., is a cardiologist whose NDE books contain a conservative religious perspective.

Kenneth Ring, Ph.D., is a professor of psychology who founded IANDS and has studied NDEs extensively.

George Ritchie, M.D., is a psychiatrist who had a profound NDE in 1943.

Michael Sabom, M.D., is a cardiologist whose skepticism about the validity of NDEs was overcome by his patients.

Susan Schoenbeck, R.N., has had many manuscripts published in professional journals and is an Associate Clinical Professor at the University of Wisconsin.

Kimberly Clark Sharp, M.S.W., has had an NDE, founded Seattle IANDS and teaches at the University of Washington medical school.

Cherie Sutherland, Ph.D., was a visiting research fellow in sociology at the University of New South Wales and has had an NDE.

Carol Zaleski, Ph.D., is a professor at Smith College who has written about ancient and medieval NDEs.

These books are arranged alphabetically by author.

Coming Back to Life, P. M. H. Atwater, 1988, Ballantine Books, New York, NY.
This is a very helpful work wherein the author, a three-time near-death experiencer, devotes many pages to the aftereffects of an NDE and the task of readjusting to life. She includes an extensive list of resources to help both experiences and counselors.

Beyond the Light, P. M. H. Atwater, 1994, Birch Lane Press, New York, NY.
In this scholarly work the author categorizes near-death experiences and traces their effects on people’s lives. She helps the reader understand the varieties of near-death experiences and the different effects they can have on people.

The Case for Heaven, Mally Cox-Chapman, 1995, Putnum, New York, NY.
Subtitled Near-Death Experiences as Evidence of the Afterlife, this book focuses on what near-death experiences suggest to us about the nature of heaven. Besides chapters on health care and the aftereffects of NDEs, the author has an intriguing chapter on what happens when people who don’t believe in heaven have NDEs.

The Near-Death Experience: Mysticism or Madness, Judith Cressy, 1994, Christopher Publishing, Hanover, MA.
Dr. Cressy had an NDE as an adult and had some difficulties with the aftereffects. So she wrote this book "to make certain that NDEers receive the compassionate personal and professional treatment they deserve as they struggle to return to life from the brink of death."

On The Other Side of Life: Exploring the Phenomenon of the Near-Death Experience, Evelyn Elsaesser Valarino, 1997, Plenum Press, New York, NY.
This book is a thoughtful and penetrating theoretical and philosophical examination of the NDE and its implications by persons who have achieved eminence in various fields of science as well as philosophy and religious thought.

The Near-Death Experience: Problems, Prospects, Perspectives, Bruce Greyson, M.D., 1984, Charles C. Thomas, Springfield, IL.
This anthology samples the more significant scholarly forays into the near-death experience. The contributions by six M.D.s, eight Ph.D.s and three other medical professionals focus more on academics than on NDE stories. This book is available at some libraries.

Memories, Dreams, Reflections, C. G. Jung, edited by Aniela Jaffe, 1969, Random House, New York, NY.
This pioneering psychologist describes his NDE in chapter 10, entitled Visions. Dr. Jung had an NDE and had the integrity to report it, but didn’t recognize it as what we now call a near-death experience. Other books on Dr. Jung have documented his experience.

A Farther Shore, Yvonne Kason, M.D, 1994, HarperCollins Publishers, Toronto, Canada.
A Farther Shore combines the dramatic story of the author’s NDE (which occurred while she was serving her medical residency) with broad research into the physical, psychological and paranormal effects on patients of what she terms "STEs" - spiritually transformative experiences.

Love is the Link, Pamela M. Kircher, M.D., 1995, Larson Publications, Burdett, NY, 14818.
Dr. Kircher is a seasoned hospice doctor whose NDE as a youngster has contributed to her understanding of the spiritual experiences of her patients. She covers many topics, including what care givers should know about what dying people can see and hear and the lasting effects and adjustment problems following near-death experiences.

Elizabeth Kübler-Ross, M.D., has published 21 books of death and dying and is a pioneer in this field. Her books are readily available in libraries and bookstores. Several of her titles are: On Death and Dying, Reflections on Death and Dying and Death is of Vital Importance (which is her latest book).

The Eternal Journey: How Near-Death Experiences Illuminate Our Earthly Lives, by Craig R. Lundahl, Ph.D. and Harold Widdison, Ph.D., 1997, Warner Books, New York, NY.
The Eternal Journey offers a comprehensive look at existing documentation on near-death experiences. Dr. Lundahl taught the first course offered exclusively on the near-death experience at an American university.

Life After Life, Raymond Moody, M.D., 1975, Bantam Books. New York, NY.
This is the classic work that started the movement that brought us to where people can be open and honest about what happens at the point of death. Coining the phrase "near-death experience," Dr. Moody defines what happens to many people when they come close to physical death.

Reflections of Life After Life, Raymond Moody, M.D., 1977, Bantam Books, New York, NY.
Dr. Moody adds new material to his 1975 classic, answers criticisms and explains his research techniques. In one chapter he cites near-death experiences from other centuries and other cultures. The largest chapter in the book is devoted to answering questions from medical and academic colleagues who had read Life After Life.

The Light Beyond, Raymond Moody, M.D., 1988, Bantam Books, New York, NY.
In this intriguing follow up to his 1975 classic, Dr. Moody includes suggestions on helping NDEers readjust to life, explains why NDEs are not mental illness and documents the activities of a number of NDE researchers. He incorporates new findings concerning the near-death experience from the fields of medicine, psychiatry and sociology.

Closer to the Light, Melvin Morse, M.D., 1990, Villard Books, New York, NY.
This very readable book is subtitled Learning From Children’s Near-Death Experiences and covers medical research done in Seattle hospitals. Much of the value of this book is its focus on young children, who are implicitly more believable than adults. Dr. Morse concludes, based on his research with children, that his "findings eliminated the theory that NDEs are the result of drugs or sleep deprivation or that they are merely bad dreams or the subconscious awareness of surgery."

Transformed by the Light, Melvin Morse, M.D., 1992, Villard Books, New York, NY.
Subtitled The Powerful Effect of Near-Death Experiences on People’s Lives, this book examines the changes that often take place in those who have had near-death experiences. Dr. Morse documents interesting aftereffects, such as problems wearing watches or with lights or electrical appliances. He shows how his studies validate NDEs as genuine human experiences, not delusions or hallucinations. At the end of the book, Dr. Morse includes a helpful selected bibliography of papers and periodicals.

Beyond Death’s Door, Maurice Rawlings, M.D., 1978; Thomas Nelson Publishers, Nashville, TN.
Dr. Rawlings discovered NDEs in his work as a cardiologist and became a born-again Christian as a result. His thesis is that there are many hellish NDEs that are ignored by researchers who prefer the stories of blissful experiences. He includes step-by-step cardiopulmonary resuscitation instructions and a prayer for becoming a born-again Christian.

To Hell and Back, Maurice Rawlings, M.D., 1993, Thomas Nelson Publishers, Nashville, TN.
In this follow up to his 1978 book, Dr. Rawlings challenges the research methods that produce mostly happy near-death experience stories and attempts to prove that the near-death experience, properly reported, supports the fundamentalist view of Christianity. His thesis is: "By denying the existence of negative events, a whole new religion has developed from near-death experiences." Much of the value of this and his earlier book is that they help the reader be aware of the existence of frightening near-death experiences.

Life At Death, Kenneth Ring, 1980, Coward, McCann & Geoghegan, New York, NY.
This scholarly book is the first scientific inquiry into the near-death experience. The author shows that NDEs happens to people of all races and ages, regardless of religious affiliation. Although drier than most NDE books (there are lots of tables and charts), it has a chapter at the end where Ken Ring examines alternative explanations for the NDE and finds them wanting.

Heading Towards Omega, Kenneth Ring, 1984, William Morrow and Company, New York, NY.
This book encourages a mind expanding experience by drawing the reader into the consciousness and world that NDEers inhabit. Extensive quotes from many experiencers make for some very interesting reading. Based on his interviews with over 100 NDEers, Ken Ring explores the aftereffects and personal transformations brought about by near-death experiences. He includes his lengthy interview questionnaire and graphs of his findings.

Return From Tomorrow, George Ritchie, M.D., 1978, Fleming H. Revell, Grand Rapids, MI.
Army recruit has major NDE that leads him to become a doctor, then a psychiatrist. He learns that the world we inhabit is loaded with spiritual entities and that there are a variety of realms on earth besides the physical one. His courageous sharing of his experience at a time when such people were considered insane opened the door for research into near-death experiences. Dr. Ritchie’s profound experience had a formative influence on Dr. Raymond Moody, the founder of the near-death "movement."

My Life After Dying, George Ritchie, M.D., 1991, Hampton Roads Publishing, Norfolk, VA.
In this second book about his 1943 NDE, Dr. Ritchie shares more of what he learned during his near-death experience as well as how it played out in his life afterwards. The author describes several healings where prayer accomplished what medical practices couldn’t. In an exemplary contrast to many who claim to be healers, Dr. Ritchie follows up on the healed patients several years later.

Recollections of Death: A Medical Investigation, Michael Sabom, M. D., 1982, Harper & Row, New York, NY.
Originally a skeptic about the validity of NDEs, this cardiologist-turned-NDE-researcher performed a study of 116 people that has become a benchmark in the field. For example, Dr. Sabom writes about 32 patients who left their bodies during surgery and who could accurately describe their resuscitation attempts and contrasts this with a control group whose educated guesses were wrong. "After a while the facts became so overwhelming that I could not deny the reality of the NDE." This out-of-print book can be found in libraries.

The Final Entrance: Journeys Beyond Life, Sue Schoenbeck, R.N., 1997, Prairie Oak Press, Madison, WI.
The Final Entrance is a reflection of the experiences of a nurse who has tended many people as they made their transition to the life to come. Sue Schoenbeck appeals to fellow nurses to listen with compassion to the words of the dying and to work to understand the effects on patients of near-death experiences.

After the Light, Kimberly Clark Sharp, 1995, William Morrow and Company, New York, NY.
Kansas girl without ruby slippers hits the sidewalk and travels somewhere over the rainbow, landing in the Emerald City of the Pacific Northwest, where she founded and still leads the oldest and largest IANDS chapter. This book chronicles the mystical, frightening, humorous and inspiring life of Kim and her patients, as she shares the road with angels, demons and other spiritual visitors. The author shares the famous Maria story, which occurred while she was working in critical care at the Harborview Medical Center in Seattle.

Reborn in the Light, 1992; Within the Light, 1993, Cherie Sutherland, Bantam Books, New York, NY.
The author’s near-death experience during a difficult childbirth triggered her interest in this field and became the basis for her doctoral thesis. Reborn in the Light focuses on life after near-death experiences and explores implications for health-care professionals. In the appendix the author reviews her research methods and includes two sets of interview questions. Within the Light covers many cases, including childhood, suicide and frightening near-death experiences.

Otherworld Journeys, Carol Zaleski, 1987, Oxford University Press, New York, NY.
Subtitled Accounts of Near-Death Experiences in Medieval and Modern Times, this is a somewhat scholarly look at NDEs across the centuries, with over 700 footnotes in 11 chapters. This work shows that NDEs have happened to people throughout history and are a normal part of being human. The literature of the Middle Ages is filled with such accounts.

You never will. The creationists believe their position is the default, the null hypothesis as it were. If they can just discredit evolution, they win. It never seems to occur to them that any replacement for evolution will ACTUALLY HAVE TO HAVE EVIDENCE ON ITS SIDE.

I've issued the same challenge in the past (indeed, using pretty much the same wording) and I've yet to get an answer. But I've been condemned to Hell on any number of occasions.

Why do you think evolution has been proved? Evolution is suggested, a possible -- that's for sure in the fossil record and in DNA sequencing, in comparative morphology. Yet it isn't proven.

Anyone who works in design of systems, of complicated systems, machiery, software or archictecture can draw and evolutionary chart. Evolution of designs is obvious, and the chart of nearly any design evolutions parallels biological evolutionary charts.

Moreover we have systems that use random draws (monte carlo simulation) to drive closed and open loop models, we have software sandboxes that evolve proofs and algorithms from snippets of building blocks. Yet we know that all useful, working software in the world (with rare exceptions) is designed.

Still an zealout nutcase of a hard-line evolutionist could employ every argument used to demand that attention be paid ONLY to biological evolution towards an equally forceful, demanding and nutty argument that all code has evoloved designer-free. Such a nut denies the belief in programmers.

First, Creationism is not a/k/a Intelligent Design but if you choose to draw that line, you should also believe neo-darwinism, through mindless mechanisms, must infer a materialistic philosophy to the degree of fundamentalism.

Now, about that challenge… I would initially put forth that human consciousness does not come from mindlessness and assert AI as evidence.

I'm not a 6-dayer, but I will admit my worldview is heavily influenced by concepts originating outside the narrow limits of naturalism. Undoubtedly, there are some serious negatives to that. There are also some positive things about it. For one thing, It encourages a healthy skepticism toward advancing the tale of evolution, a quality not easily found in the world of academic science.

Unfortunately, most educated believers in evolution are tongue-drooping "yuppers" that swallow every gosh-dang just-so story as long as it conforms to general Darwinian ideas.

The history of pathetic "examples" of evolution that have been splashed in our students' texts is a comedy of errors, a parade of corny nonsense. Jonathan Wells "Icons of Evolution" illustrates many of these prominent entertainments.

From Piltdown to peppered moth, from Nebraska Man to Ramapithecus, from areopteryx to eohippus, we have an ongoing marvelous display that lazy credulity is found as easily among materialists as it is among the spiritualizers.

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