Posted on 04/14/2005 12:00:51 PM PDT by Dean Baker
Baptist church 'fake pope' sign attracting attention, criticism By JEANNINE F. HUNTER, hunter@knews.com April 13, 2005
NEWPORT, Tenn. - Two days after being posted, a church marquee message that questions the purpose of the papacy is still attracting attention in this small community.
"What I am trying to do is to let people know there's only one way to heaven through Jesus Christ," said the Rev. Cline Franklin, pastor of Hilltop Baptist Church. "There's no need for help. God sent his son, Jesus Christ. We're all priests if we're saved. I don't need to go to anybody else to pray."
The sign's side facing Broadway, the main thoroughfare in Newport, reads, "No truth, No hope Following a hell-bound pope!" On the other side, facing the church parking lot, it reads: "False hope in a fake pope."
The message appeared days after Pope John Paul II's funeral last week.
"It is unfortunate when it comes from within the Christian church. It's really sad," said the Rev. Dan Whitman, 54, pastor of Newport's Good Shepherd Catholic parish and Holy Trinity parish in Jefferson City. "You learn how to deal with it and pray not to be that way yourself."
It does not reflect mainstream Baptist thought, said Dr. Merrill "Mel" Hawkins, associate professor of religion and director of the Center for Baptist Studies at Carson-Newman College in Jefferson City.
"When you see signs like that, they are almost like relics or artifacts of a bygone era," Hawkins said.
He spoke about animus between Protestants and Catholics persisting after the Protestant Reformation and for centuries, during which "harsh things were said, couched within misperceptions, misunderstandings."
Among the major misperceptions is that Catholics "venerate the pope on the same level as Jesus," Hawkins said, and that "the pope is connected to their salvation in place of Jesus Christ."
Catholics make up about 12 percent of the population in the South.
"Catholics are a minority faith in the South, and there's often bias toward minority religious communities because people don't understand," he said.
James Gaddis, a lay speaker who also chairs the board at First United Methodist Church, said he had not seen the sign but had heard about it.
"I understand that it's very degrading," he said. "I think it's tragic that any church group would stoop to this posture."
Following Tuesday night's council meeting, Newport Mayor Roland Dykes Jr. said he was a little saddened by the message.
"It doesn't behoove any of us to determine who is going to heaven or hell. I think the pope is a highly, highly respected person," he said.
Franklin's church is a five-year-old independent Baptist church. When asked what the message meant, he said: "What does 'pope' mean? It means father. We have a heavenly father, and the Bible says we shall call no man a father. "
He said people have been driving by or taking pictures or calling to share their views. He said the intent was not to offend Catholics and people are misunderstanding the sign.
Copyright 2005, Knoxville News-Sentinel Co.
"You can only hope."
Well, considering it was standard medical practice to hit people with hammers, use a mirror, wait and watch over the body for 12 days, etc. up until early 1900's, to make sure people were REALLY dead, instead of MOSTLY dead, I think I have a pretty good basis for my belief.
No comment - just trying for post 666 if I can!
663!
!664
If you don't like the term "addendum to the contract," then "novation of the contract" might be better. The concept is the same --- a "new covenant."
665?
I'm sorry the presence of free Christians is so threatening to you, and don't envy you. It's always a bummer to be the last to realize something about yourself, and to be left with nothing but childish "I know you are but what am I?" games.
No Christian is in that kind of need, as long as Colossians 2:9-10 is true, as long as John 19:31 is true, as long as Hebrews 10 is true -- which is to say, forever. I urge you to come to Christ; nothing outside of you prevents you from knowing that joy and freedom.
As to needlessly and/or cruelly bashing the Pope, find one post here where I've done that, or apologize.
Perhaps at the very least, one day you'll be able to admit to yourself that there is nothing improper with Evangelicals actually concerning themselves with the Evangel.
Dan
Male circumcision is hardly ritual sex abuse.
Heck, it's the best defense against a zipper accident in the world.
And --- while there is a lot of junk science on both sides of the issue --- it's cleaner.
That's like the joke I heard years ago.
The Pope's assistant answers the phone one day, goes completely white and runs to the Pope.
"I have good news and bad news", he reports
The Pope says "Well, give me the good news."
The assistant says "God is on the telephone and wants to talk to you."
The Pope jumps up and says "That's great news! But what is the bad news?"
The assistant bows his head and starts studying his feet..."He is calling from Salt Lake."
The clear thrust of your post 615 is that the Pope is in Hell. I do not see what good posthumous attacks such as these do. But knowing that you are eager to make them shows me all I need to know about your brand of Christianity.
>>>>>>>>No Christian is in that kind of need, as long as Colossians 2:9-10 is true, as long as John 19:31 is true, as long as Hebrews 10 is true -- which is to say, forever. I urge you to come to Christ;
I was claimed by Christ many years ago when I was baptized, and I have been receiving Him in the Most Blessed Sacrament on a regular basis since I was in the second grade. Of course, since you apparently believe that Catholics aren't "Christians," none of this matters to you. But I am quite happy to be a member of the Church founded by Christ and to be in communion with His Vicar on earth, the successor to St. Peter.
I'm only "Lost" in you world. And I don't believe you speak for anything outside of your world.
What you need to know is that what you describe is indeed a religion, but it is antithetical to what the Bible teaches. It is not Christianity, IF the Bible defines Christianity. You hope in chimeras which have yet to save anyone, whereas God's Word would direct you to Jesus Christ (John 14:6; Acts 4:12; Colossians 2:1-10), who saves all who trust in Him -- not in manmade mythologies.
Reject Christ and His Word if you choose; but you mustn't reproach Christians for, well, practicing Christianity.
Or if you do, you mustn't expect to be heeded.
Dan
I've never met a fellow Catholic who worships the Pope in any way, shape, or form. Where are you getting that idea?
Well, I hope the accusations are wrong.
As to the 2000 BF&M, nowhere does it say that you have to sign to be a good Christian or a good Baptist. However, if one were a conservative Baptist, the additions on family and homosexuality or anything else should be in agreement with one's belief system (I would think). Typically, it is moderates who refuse to affirm, or those who think it is a creed. Not signing does not say you are a moderate or liberal. However, it does raise an eyebrow as to why not. Maybe a legitimate reason, maybe not.
I certainly reject anyone who tells me that I am not a Christian, nor is anyone who is a Roman Catholic. What arrogance, what ignorance, what malice.
Your arrogance in thinking you're the inpsired one is staggering.
I'm glad we can dialogue about it. As a Catholic, I like the tradition. I do believe that the Roman Catholic church honors the good traditions (and some are important to our worship as well) as a way of helping us humans who may approach Mass and worship with burdens that might hinder our participation. On a simpler level, just as the sight of a birthday cake and gifts might help us shift gears and celebrate with a loved one, so, too, do traditions help us shift focus from self concerns to Heavenly ones. Just the same as families and cultures and communitites have traditions that unify them and remind them of why they are doing what they are doing and why it's important. I know that in their own unique way, many Prostestant churches have their own traditions, even if they aren't woven into worship, that help their communities.
"Then you are blind, because the things I know have not come from men." ~ BriarBey
Name the religious KOOK that hasn't also said that.
The name of the MAN from which you got your basic beliefs was Cerinthus. The apostles referred to him as "the arch-heretic. He, too claimed that they were the ones who were blind because "the things he knew didn't come from men".
The Millennium doctrine started in an ungodly heretic by the name of Cerinthus, who lived in the first century.
It is true that the Jews generally believed that the Messiah would establish a literal or earthly kingdom.
And even some of them believed that Messiah's reign would last a thousand years. We here give an extract from Neander's History of Christian Dogmas, Vol. 1, Page 248.
"The idea of a Millennial reign proceeded from Judaism; for among the Jews the representation was current that the Messiah would reign a thousand years upon earth. . . . Such products of Jewish imagination passed over into Christianity."
As before stated, Let history speak.
In Eusebius's Ecclesiastical History, Book III, Chapter 28, is preserved a fragment from the writings of Caius, who lived about the close of the second century, which gives us the following account of Cerinthus's heresy:
"But Cerinthus, too, through revelations written, as he would have us believe, by a great apostle, brings before us marvelous things, which he pretends were shown him by angels; alleging that after the resurrection the kingdom of Christ is to be on earth, and that the flesh dwelling in Jerusalem is again to be subject to desires and pleasures. And being an enemy to the scriptures of God, wishing to deceive men, he says that there is to be space of a thousand years for marriage festivities." "One of the doctrines he taught was, that Christ would have an earthly kingdom."
This is the true origin of the Millennium theory. The reader will observe how lightly our author speaks of Cerinthus's idea of the kingdom of Christ being set up on earth after the resurrection. He says this doctrine was
"something which he [Cerinthus] pretends was shown to him by angels."
Caius must therefore have believed the orthodox teachings of the scriptures, that Christ's kingdom was set up at his first coming. Observe also that Caius calls Cerinthus "an enemy to the scriptures of God," and one who was "wishing to deceive men." This language he uses with special reference to the one thousand years Cerinthus claimed would be spent in sensuality. Notice also that Cerinthus believed in an earthly kingdom.
Cerinthus lived in the days of the apostle John. We will now call your attention to the attitude of the beloved apostle toward this Millennial teacher.
Irenaeus, who was born about 120 A. D. and was acquainted with Polycarp, the disciple of John,
[Eusebius's Eccl. Hist., V. 24], states that while John was at Ephesus, he entered a bath to wash and found that Cerinthus was within, and refused to bathe in the same bath house, but left the building, and exhorted those with him to do the same, saying, "Let us flee, lest the bath fall in, as long as Cerinthus, that enemy of the truth, is within."Eusebius's Eccl. Hist., III. 28.
Let this be a rebuke to modern Millennial advocates. They claim their doctrine is well founded in the Apocalypse of John. But John called the founder of their theory "that enemy of the truth."
"Cerinthus required his followers to worship the supreme God.... He promised them a resurrection of their bodies, which would be succeeded by exquisite delights in the Millenary reign of Christ.... For Cerinthus supposed that Christ would hereafter return . . . and would reign with his followers a thousand years in Palestine."." Mosheim's Eccl. Hist., Page 50.
"Cerinthus required his followers to retain part of the Mosaical law, but to regulate their lives by the example of Christ: and taught that after the resurrection Christ would reign upon earth, with his faithful disciples, a thousand years, which would be spent in the highest sensual indulgences.
This mixture of Judaism and Oriental philosophy was calculated to make many converts, and this sect soon became very numerous. They admitted a part of St. Matthew's Gospel but rejected the rest, and held the epistles of St. Paul in great abhorrence."Gregory and Ruter's Church History., Page 30.
"Even though the floods of the nations and the vain superstitions of heretics should revolt against their true faith, they are overcome, and shall be dissolved as the foam, because Christ is the rock by which, and on which, the church is founded. And thus it is overcome by no [16] traces of maddened men. Therefore they are not to be heard who assure themselves that there is to be an earthly reign of a thousand years; who think, that is to say, with the heretic Cerinthus. For the kingdom of Christ is now eternal in his saints."
From a commentary on the Apocalypse, by Victorinus, Ante-Nicene Fathers.
Thank God for the united testimony of history.
Observe, dear reader, how closely the modern Millennium teachers cling to the doctrines of their founder.
Cerinthus taught that "Christ will have an earthly kingdom." "After the resurrection the kingdom of Christ is to be on earth."
"The resurrection would be followed by exquisite delights in the Millenary reign of Christ."
" That Christ would hereafter return, and would reign with his followers a thousand years in Palestine."
The only difference is that his modern followers have dropped the idea of sensuality.
But how did the early church regard the doctrine of Cerinthus ?
The apostle John called Cerinthus "that enemy of the truth." They taught that
"they are not to be heard who assure themselves that there is to be an earthly reign of a thousand years."
What was the doctrine of the early church according to history?
"Christ is the rock on which, and by which the church is founded."
"The kingdom of Christ is now eternal in his saints."
"It was the universal feeling among primitive Christians that they were living in the last period of the world's history."Encyclopedia Britannica, Vol. VIII.. Page 534.
The reason they believed this was because the New Testament was their faith, and this is the doctrine of the New Testament throughout. No wonder Cerinthus and his followers
"rejected part of St. Matthew's Gospel, and held the epistles of Paul in great abhorrence."
Just so do modern Millennium teachers dwell very little in the plain Gospels and Epistles to prove their doctrines, but speculate in prophecy and revelation.
Having seen that Cerinthus and his false doctrine were rejected by God's church we will now come to its next chief advocate, Papias, who lived in the first half of the second century.
Eusebius, under the heading "The Writings of Papias," says of him:
"The same historian also gives other accounts, which he says he adds as received by him from unwritten tradition, likewise some strange parables of our Lord, and of his doctrine, and some other matters rather too fabulous. In these he says there would be a certain Millennium after the resurrection, and that there would be a corporeal reign of Christ on this very earth; which things he appears to have imagined, as if they were authorized by the apostolic narrations, not understanding correctly those matters which they propounded mystically in their representations. For he was very limited in his comprehension, as is evident from his discourses." Eusebius's Eccl. Hist., Book m, Chap. 39, Page 115.
Historians generally tell us that Papias was a very zealous advocate of this imaginary reign of Christ on earth.
"The first distinguished opponent of this doctrine was Origen, who attacked it with great earnestness and ingenuity, and seems, in spite of some opposition to have thrown it into general discredit."Wadington's History, Page 56.
"This obscure doctrine was probably known to but very few except the Fathers of the church, and is very sparingly mentioned by them during the first two centuries; and there is reason to believe that it scarcely attained much notoriety even among the learned Christians, until it was made a matter of controversy by Origen, and then rejected by the great majority. In fact we find Origen himself asserting that it was confined to those of the simpler sort."Wadington's History, Page 56.
Next among the advocates of this doctrine was Nepos, a bishop in Egypt. He advocated the doctrine about A. D. 255. We here insert the following from Eusebius's History, Book VII, Chapter 23, under the heading "Nepos, and His Schism."
"He taught that the promises given to holy men in the scriptures should be understood more as the Jews understood them, and supposed that there would be a certain Millennium of sensual luxury on this earth: thinking, therefore, that he could establish his own opinion by the Revelation of John . . . He (Nepos) asserts that there will be an earthly reign of Christ."
"Though Millennialism had [18] been suppressed by the early church, it was nevertheless from time to time revived by heretical sects."Dr. Schaff's Hlstory, Page 299.
"Nowhere in the discourses of Jesus is there a hint of a limited duration of the Messianic kingdom. The apostolic epistles are equally free from any trace of Chiliasm."Encyclopedia BrittanicaArticles on Millennium.
To sum up the uniform voice of history, the theory of a literal kingdom and reign on the earth was gathered from Jewish fabulous "apocalypse," "unwritten tradition," "carnal misapprehensions," "pretended visions," "suppositions," and "superstitious imaginations."
The vain worldly expectation that the Messiah would establish a literal kingdom caused the Jews to reject him, and his spiritual kingdom.
They only wanted an earthly kingdom; hence rejected and crucified the Son of God.
As soon as the church began to apostatize, and lost the glory of his spiritual kingdom, vain ambitions awakened the old Jewish desire for a literal kingdom.
http://www.scionofzion.com/ehmt.htm
http://www.eschatology.org.nz
You are right that Islam is not monolithic. That is another reason why it is unwise to make sweeping generalizations about what individual Muslims do and believe.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.