Posted on 04/14/2005 12:00:51 PM PDT by Dean Baker
Baptist church 'fake pope' sign attracting attention, criticism By JEANNINE F. HUNTER, hunter@knews.com April 13, 2005
NEWPORT, Tenn. - Two days after being posted, a church marquee message that questions the purpose of the papacy is still attracting attention in this small community.
"What I am trying to do is to let people know there's only one way to heaven through Jesus Christ," said the Rev. Cline Franklin, pastor of Hilltop Baptist Church. "There's no need for help. God sent his son, Jesus Christ. We're all priests if we're saved. I don't need to go to anybody else to pray."
The sign's side facing Broadway, the main thoroughfare in Newport, reads, "No truth, No hope Following a hell-bound pope!" On the other side, facing the church parking lot, it reads: "False hope in a fake pope."
The message appeared days after Pope John Paul II's funeral last week.
"It is unfortunate when it comes from within the Christian church. It's really sad," said the Rev. Dan Whitman, 54, pastor of Newport's Good Shepherd Catholic parish and Holy Trinity parish in Jefferson City. "You learn how to deal with it and pray not to be that way yourself."
It does not reflect mainstream Baptist thought, said Dr. Merrill "Mel" Hawkins, associate professor of religion and director of the Center for Baptist Studies at Carson-Newman College in Jefferson City.
"When you see signs like that, they are almost like relics or artifacts of a bygone era," Hawkins said.
He spoke about animus between Protestants and Catholics persisting after the Protestant Reformation and for centuries, during which "harsh things were said, couched within misperceptions, misunderstandings."
Among the major misperceptions is that Catholics "venerate the pope on the same level as Jesus," Hawkins said, and that "the pope is connected to their salvation in place of Jesus Christ."
Catholics make up about 12 percent of the population in the South.
"Catholics are a minority faith in the South, and there's often bias toward minority religious communities because people don't understand," he said.
James Gaddis, a lay speaker who also chairs the board at First United Methodist Church, said he had not seen the sign but had heard about it.
"I understand that it's very degrading," he said. "I think it's tragic that any church group would stoop to this posture."
Following Tuesday night's council meeting, Newport Mayor Roland Dykes Jr. said he was a little saddened by the message.
"It doesn't behoove any of us to determine who is going to heaven or hell. I think the pope is a highly, highly respected person," he said.
Franklin's church is a five-year-old independent Baptist church. When asked what the message meant, he said: "What does 'pope' mean? It means father. We have a heavenly father, and the Bible says we shall call no man a father. "
He said people have been driving by or taking pictures or calling to share their views. He said the intent was not to offend Catholics and people are misunderstanding the sign.
Copyright 2005, Knoxville News-Sentinel Co.
I have changed my mind based upon convincing articles I have read.
If this thread were on the religion forum the number of deleted posts would be very high indeed. I don't think inter religion bashing serves this forum well. It is distracting of its mission, in part because so much is a matter of faith that cannot be resolved by debate even if such were conducted by the most civil and skillful and wise, which is rarely the case. JMO.
ROFLMAO...... okay well why argue with you when you may be Catholic by next week? or an adherent of Wicca?
What a stupid comment.
I have an open mind. If, instead of attacking me, you would try to convince me Catholicism is right, maybe I will change my mind.
Gosh, lots of questions here. I'll probably skip a few, just because it would literally take years and probably wisdom beyond what little I have. I'll try and answer the best I can.
1. " What do you call a christian that obeys the Law that Chirst paid the penalty for?"
Redundant. Good hearted, perhaps. Perhaps the following the Holy Spirit. In seriousness, basically 3/4 the "letters" section of the New Testament concern these issues.
Back in the early church, there was a huge division between the "Jews for Jesus" (like me, I guess) who were with Peter and Paul (who, while he was what we would now call an Orthodox Jew and actually hired by Rome to hunt down and kill Christians became the apostle to the Gentiles).
The big issues were dietary and certain rituals, chiefly circumcision.
Paul and Peter (acting IMHO opionion) agreed that what mattered was following Chirst, loving one another, and doing whatever one did as if you did it for God.
Hence, while opinions could differ on things like circumcision or whatnot ---- the key was one's heart and purpose.
2. So, non-Christians are under the Law.
That meant just what it said. (Of course, you are in a non-temple period, so the really weird ritual sacrifices at Passover are moot until the Temple is rebuilt there on the Western Wall.)
On the topic, Drew is a nutcase. I was circumcised in a traditional Bris. Everything works just fine.
3. Complaints that the Holy Spirit concept is vague.
Perhaps. The concept has certainly been abused. And one should look to the Law --- in that the Holy Spirit will NEVER tell one to do something against the Law --- but you'd know if you become a Christian.
I have considered things that are against the Holy Spirit (cheating on taxes for example), and I have felt the sickness and separation from God. It's subtle; but subtle like a sledgehammer --- in things both large and small.
It is the most valuable guide and check of my life.
"4. Define sin"
Big concept. Hence the vagueness of the Holy Spirit, I guess. Sin is anything that brings us from the absence of God. It just depends. You know what is right and wrong. The wrong is sin.
And sin is sometimes not in the Bible. I can't think of any example, but Christ repeatedly criticised legal scholars for things that were technically "OK" under the law --- but clearly wrong. That is sin.
And sometimes things that would appear to be sin --- such as healing a blind man on the Sabbath (which is "work") --- are not sin because the Sabbath is for man.
Saying what is "sin" is very hard. I could not do it without the Holy Spirit.
5. "Repent"
It's a change of heart. It's an acknowledgement that we all fall short. It's a desire to do better. You know this.
6. "So what are the exact laws you don't want to be under? You seem to gravitate toward dietary laws."
This is hard, as well. I "gravitated" to the dietary laws because your original example was a cloven animal (a pig) under Leviticus.
The "laws" that don't have to be followed by Christians are laregely the "purity" laws related to Temple worship and Exodus when God physcially appeared in the Holy-of-Holies and certain other purity laws related to diet.
This is --- for someone completely unfamiliar with the issue -- somewhate represented in "Raiders of the Lost Ark" the literal ark wher the 10 commandments were located. God physically appeared.
There were obscure and strict requirements of purity for approaching God in that circumstance.
To oversimplify, one became pure by strict bathing and other rituals.
Christians, by being baptised in the blood of Christ, no longer need such purification.
Hence, no worry about touching pigs.
7. "Which laws, part II."
The second group of laws relate to Passover. Passover celebrates the passing over of the angel of death in Egypt. Certan rituals are expected because this was a very SERIOUS angel, largely the yearly sacrifice of a perfect lamb.
Again, Christ was the perfect Passover sacrifice. So perfect He defeated death. Hence, Easter.
8. "Which laws, part III --- seems to me, if I deal drugs, I would be a legalist"
There is nothing wrong with looking to the law. It is very informative.
And, of course, your gut knows that rotting people's brains with drugs is wrong --- I don't mistake that with "gas" --- and you don't, either.
9. "I assume you don't keep Easter, Christmas, or St John the Baptist Day either? It's all unnecessary for salvation. . "
Nonsense! Sure, one could go to heaven ignoring all of those. (I don't even know what St. John's day is?!)
But who would want to?! Jesus is my FRIEND. I love Him. Yes, there very well be nothing in it for me to celebrate His birthday, His Death, or His resurrection.
But I do because He changed my heart. I was a mean prick who cared for no one but myself before I met Him. I was in the Army and laughed as I killed Iraqis (AH-64A pilot, Desert Strom/Shield). I thought it was blast. Now I realize that God loves (loved?) each one of them as much, if not more, than me.
Yet, I probably sent them to Hell. It bothers me quite a bit.
10. "If we figured out that God exists then all we must figure is if the mind of God should be obeyed or ignored. Seems like a simple plug in."
Just remember Moses asked God who/what/where/why/how and all Moses got back was "I am."
God IS. Not a satisfying answer, to me either.
But recall Job (I think) who --- after being dumped on by God for no good reason asked --- why? And he got back the answer, "Where were you when I created the heavens and the earth?"
In short, don't try to hard to figure God out. God spoke the universe into exisence. You and me are a speck on the speck of a speck of a little mudball planet.
"And you are a pinhead. Fortunately for you, stupidity is not a bar to entering into Heaven."
Thank God! Otherwise, I would be so toasted!
An apt summary of everything you have written.
I still want to know what drives people like you to come onto threads that attract Catholics to attack the Catholic Church and the Pope. Jealousy? Spite? Boredom? Running out of animals to kick?
"Did you hear on Fox News where the pope is hit in the forehead 3 times with a small mallet to break the seal and release the spirit to go into the next pope."
Urban myth. They used to tap the head --- and hold up a silver mirror for breathing BTW --- b/c up until recently it was hard to tell if someone was dead. (The steothoscope is a recent invention.)
The "release the spirit" is pure B.S.
Well, no, as a matter of fact, all of the writers of the Christian Bible weren't Jewish; St. Luke was a Gentile. And given that (modern) Jews consider a Jew who recognizes Jesus as the Messiah to be not-a-Jew, I suppose you could say that none of of the writers of the NT were Jewish.
And it is pure and simple arrogance to claim that the Catholic "church" canonized the Bible. We predate you by over a thousand years.
As far as we're concerned, Judaism before the resurrection and Catholicism afterwards are one and the same thing. In fact, our Scriptures pretty flatly say so (Romans 11:17-24).
From our POV, you didn't "predate" us. You were us.
Nonexistent. As Christians we try to follow God's law, but no human besides Jesus Christ has managed to be completely without sin, which is why he did pay that penalty.
But there is no denying that it is very troubling that millons of Americans owe allegiance to a foreign organization thast is authoritarian in nature.
I would encourage all Catholics to embrace either Pentacostal Christianity or Mormonism. This would eliminate all problem of divided loyalties, and would ensure that their Christain faith was not tainted by liberal tendencies.
From http://www.catholic.org/clife/prayers/prayers.php?section_id=31&name=Marian%20(Mary) - which I assume to be the official Catholic website. I could be wrong about that - anyone know?
Must be pretty breathtaking, to be a 21-year-old college student and to know the mind of the Almighty like you do.
I've only lived twice as long as you, been married, held a number of jobs, have a couple of graduate degrees and some kids ... and I just prefer to prostrate myself with my nose to the floor before the infinite majesty and holiness of Him who created the stars, and say with Peter, "Depart from me, Oh Lord, for I am a sinful man."
But you, you are qualified enough to condemn another man to hell. You must truly know the mind of God. NOT.
Someday, you'll be an old man and laugh at the arrogance you exhibit now. Or you'll just be an old, ignorant fool. You pick.
ROFL -- why not both at once? We could speak in tongues and have a new wife for each new language we speak!
GET REAL.
I agree with you. One only has to look to see the number of churches condoning homosexuality to see the falling away starting to take place.
But I think we should fight within the organized religions as long as possible. There is certainly a point where many of them and perhaps each of them will cease to be effective tools of the Lord at which point we should heed the call to come out of them.
I didn't hear about them hitting the pope in the forehead. That's wierd.
But I don't see interdenominational disputes occurring any more than they have in the past. In fact, in many cases the denominations have worked well together in the mission fields for the last 20-30 years. As eastern religions have made in roads in America. Interdenominational differences have been put in better perspective. That's going to fail as some of the denominations become more corrupt, but let's not ring the death knell too early.
Your warning's well taken and we should remain alert. But lets stay mission focused as long as we can. We don't do anybody any good by abandoning organized denominations too early. And for all we know some of them might hang in there as true servants right up until the rapture. The church that's left after that will serve the one world system, but that won't be our concern.
I apologize for the sir comment, this is my last response to this since we aren't going to agree. CN isn't perfect but it's not as bad as You may think either, after all it is a Christian Liberal Arts College, not a Bible School.
This all stems from the accusations by Brady Tarr at the TBC, (I'm not as disconnected as you think). It's interesting that much of his accusations have been refuted not only by the College, but by local Pastor's as well. The TBC is currently investigating, report due at the 2005 TBC if I remember correctly, and even though the investigation is ongoing, it seems you've already judged and convicted them.
As far as the 2000 BF&M, where does it say in the Bible that we are to sign a pledge in order to be a good Christian? This is more of the extrabiblical, Jesus +/- thinking so prevalent in Christianity today.
I went to CN for 4 years (not that long ago) and I was taught that Jesus is the ONLY way to heaven, and never heard mention of theistic evolution.
Peace be with You.
Any decent dictionary will tell you it comes from Late Greek kyriakon, meaning "Lord's house".
Ekklesia is not a hierarchial man-made organization.
That's great, because the Catholic Church is not a man-made organization at all.
Huh? You might try explaining that all the Catholics serving in the Armed Forces. Catholics have been overrepresented in the Armed Forces for a long time. We are loyal Americans, despite what bigots like you say.
>>>>>>>I would encourage all Catholics to embrace either Pentacostal Christianity or Mormonism. This would eliminate all problem of divided loyalties, and would ensure that their Christain faith was not tainted by liberal tendencies.
I would encourage you to emigrate to Belfast. You might feel more at home.
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