You can read the first chapter on line.
Posted on 04/04/2005 10:11:49 AM PDT by robowombat
2005-03-30 Gospel of Judas back in spotlight after 20 centuries Swiss foundation seeks to shed light on controversial Christian text named after apostle said to have betrayed Jesus. By Patrick Baert - GENEVA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- About 2,000 years after the Gospel according to Judas sowed discord among early Christians, a Swiss foundation says it is translating for the first time the controversial text named after the apostle said to have betrayed Jesus Christ.
The 62-page papyrus manuscript of the text was uncovered in Egypt during the 1950s or 1960s, but its owners did not fully comprehend its significance until recently, according to the Maecenas Foundation in Basel.
The manuscript written in the ancient dialect of Egypt's Coptic Christian community will be translated into English, French and German in about a year, the foundation specialising in antique culture said on Tuesday.
"We have just received the results of carbon dating: the text is older than we thought and dates back to a period between the beginning of the third and fourth centuries," foundation director Mario Jean Roberty said.
The existence of a Gospel of Judas, which was originally written in Greek, was outlined by a bishop, Saint Irenee, when he denounced the text as heretical during the second century.
"It's the only clear source that allows us to know that such a Gospel did exist," Roberty explained.
The foundation declined to say what account Judas is said to give in his alleged gospel.
According to Christian tradition, Judas Iscariot betrayed Jesus Christ by helping the Romans to find him before he was crucified.
"We do not want to reveal the exceptional side of what we have," Roberty said.
The author of the text is unknown.
"No one can clearly state that Judas wrote it himself," Roberty said, while pointing out that the other gospels were probably not written by their supposed authors either.
The four recognised gospels of the New Testament describe the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ and are said to record his teachings from the eyes of four of his disciples, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
The Roman Catholic Church limited the recognised gospels to the four in 325, under the guidance of the first Christian Roman emperor, Constantine.
Thirty other texts - some of which have been uncovered - were sidelined because "they were difficult to reconcile with what Constantine wanted as a political doctrine," according to Roberty.
The foundation's director said the Judas Iscariot text called into question some of the political principles of Christian doctrine.
It could also to some extent rehabilitate Judas, whose name has often come to symbolise the accusation of deicide - God-killing - levelled by some Christian teachings against the Jewish people, he added.
After the manuscript is restored, the text is due to be translated and analysed by a team of specialists in Coptic history led by a former professor at the University of Geneva, Rudolf Kasser.
Jean-Daniel Kaestli, an expert on gospels who has seen the manuscript, said the discovery was "very interesting", although the papyrus was in a bad state.
He added that it was not going to lead to a revolutionary change in the vision of the Bible, although it could shed some new light on parts of Christianity's holy text.
The Maecenas Foundation, which aims to protect archaeological relics found in poor countries, hopes to organise exhibitions around the manuscript and to produce a documentary on the process of unravelling the text.
The full launch is due in Easter 2006.
Gospel of Judas back in spotlight after 20 centuries Swiss foundation seeks to shed light on controversial Christian text named after apostle said to have betrayed Jesus. By Patrick Baert - GENEVA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- About 2,000 years after the Gospel according to Judas sowed discord among early Christians, a Swiss foundation says it is translating for the first time the controversial text named after the apostle said to have betrayed Jesus Christ.
The 62-page papyrus manuscript of the text was uncovered in Egypt during the 1950s or 1960s, but its owners did not fully comprehend its significance until recently, according to the Maecenas Foundation in Basel.
The manuscript written in the ancient dialect of Egypt's Coptic Christian community will be translated into English, French and German in about a year, the foundation specialising in antique culture said on Tuesday.
"We have just received the results of carbon dating: the text is older than we thought and dates back to a period between the beginning of the third and fourth centuries," foundation director Mario Jean Roberty said.
The existence of a Gospel of Judas, which was originally written in Greek, was outlined by a bishop, Saint Irenee, when he denounced the text as heretical during the second century.
"It's the only clear source that allows us to know that such a Gospel did exist," Roberty explained.
The foundation declined to say what account Judas is said to give in his alleged gospel.
According to Christian tradition, Judas Iscariot betrayed Jesus Christ by helping the Romans to find him before he was crucified.
"We do not want to reveal the exceptional side of what we have," Roberty said.
The author of the text is unknown.
"No one can clearly state that Judas wrote it himself," Roberty said, while pointing out that the other gospels were probably not written by their supposed authors either.
The four recognised gospels of the New Testament describe the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ and are said to record his teachings from the eyes of four of his disciples, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
The Roman Catholic Church limited the recognised gospels to the four in 325, under the guidance of the first Christian Roman emperor, Constantine.
Thirty other texts - some of which have been uncovered - were sidelined because "they were difficult to reconcile with what Constantine wanted as a political doctrine," according to Roberty.
The foundation's director said the Judas Iscariot text called into question some of the political principles of Christian doctrine.
It could also to some extent rehabilitate Judas, whose name has often come to symbolise the accusation of deicide - God-killing - levelled by some Christian teachings against the Jewish people, he added.
After the manuscript is restored, the text is due to be translated and analysed by a team of specialists in Coptic history led by a former professor at the University of Geneva, Rudolf Kasser.
Jean-Daniel Kaestli, an expert on gospels who has seen the manuscript, said the discovery was "very interesting", although the papyrus was in a bad state.
He added that it was not going to lead to a revolutionary change in the vision of the Bible, although it could shed some new light on parts of Christianity's holy text.
The Maecenas Foundation, which aims to protect archaeological relics found in poor countries, hopes to organise exhibitions around the manuscript and to produce a documentary on the process of unravelling the text.
The full launch is due in Easter 2006.
I never said I'd show it to you. It's 'personal evidence'.
(It was just as lame an argument when you used it, trust me)
How are you going to convince me without the evidence?
The same way you were going to convince me that Jesus is the Son of God and was resurrected as described in the Bible.
That's just it. I'm not trying to convince you. You can only convince yourself. Your problem was that you thought personal evidence was not evidence.
Every Christian has evidence of the diety of Christ. That's why they are a Christian.
[ but is that your opinion, or do you presume to know the workings of the mind and will of God? ]
Nicely written and slickly condescending(the whole post).. i.e. it took effort..
I'm not as nice or slick, could be, but ain't, not my style, especially on a political forum like this... and my only patrony of you will be responding at all.. I have no wish to engage in two monologues.. or in a flame war with the indoctrinated.. either with a Roman Catholic or any other kind of catholic(various or protestant)..
But you do pose an interesting question.. and an attempt at an answer is warranted here, I think..
Basically what you're askin me (in my mind) is; How did I get so smart to make such a statement or imply that; "the real god doesn't like religion any of them".?.
Well, I'm gonna tell ya...
Half in jest (to make it interesting to me), and half as a serious engagement (as an intellectual test to myself). Be not deceived that I have any hope of convincing anybody of anything.. I don't.. Dogma is a strong drug to people.. as Marx and Lenin have throughly proven.. People can switch dogma but getting clean is hard. You posited a fine question nevertheless..
Looking at it one way, biblically, it all started when "the people" came top Moses and said, "We want a "government/ religion like all the other people around us.. thereby rejecting God as their supreme leader and wanting a social structure like the Amelkites, Canaanites, Egyptians and other primitive social structures around them at the time.. After a severe warning (as the bible recounts) from God. The big guy said said, OK, but you must do it this way.. and provided the design for the new renagade system of government/religion..
And The Jews proceeded (for the next several centuries) to prove that human government and religion were beyond mankinds ability to control and follow by any means.. For government and religion are two sides of the same coin.. Morality forced from different angles upon a sliding scale of whatever was politically correct at the time.. Being PC is not a new invention..
(fast foward) God eventually left the ark of the covenant and instructed Jeremiah(some say) to take the ark away thereby obliterating the very reason and basis for Judaism but Judaism continued as a religion.. same thing happened when Jesus(ark) was removed.. Which is to say; a relationship with the god with no name, should be a relationship with no name.. You can't "bag" a REAL god.. Any religion can function without a god, proved by so many religions that don't have a "real" god anyways.. and function quite well.. Religion always was and is a corporation, a human organization that claims to have some "god" tied up in an iron clad contract.. And in the case of "Christian" religions are Used Jesus Salesmen.. or in some, Pre-Owned Jesus Salesmen.. with the insurance provided for an addtional and not nominal charge.. With the jews today its the same story but operate like a "Saturn(auto) Dealer". no haggling.. what you see is what you get.. pay up, and shut up.. Refreshing really..
**NOTE..
I could have gone much further but it dawned on me that I am talking to the dogmatically inhibited.. and the only ones that may get any use from this display are me and few lurkers.. maybe.. But it was good question.. Ex-Cathedra speaking is an art, as many Popes have proven.. Just open your mouth and speak.. and some idiot will take it as out of the mouth of God himself.. I don't do it well, but really, who cares.?.
Give me scientific proof that you drank something today.
You are confusing scientific proof with legal-historical proof. Big difference.
The Jewish requirement is 2 eyewitnesses.
Okay. Hold out your hands.
You are confusing scientific proof with legal-historical proof. Big difference.
No, I'm saying faith is not the same as scientific evidence.
Are you Jewish?
Yes, I'm an adopted Jew. Two eyewitnesses seems a good standard.
True. Faith is what bridges gthe gap between absolute certainty and circumstantial evidence. Absolute certainty is really not atainable in any real sense. But that is a different discussion.
Christians base their faith on evidence. This evidence includes witnesses as well as personal experience. Its fine to reject the evidence Christians use to base their faith on, but its incorrect to claim there is no evidence.
Do you know of any eyewitnesses that I can speak with who can verify that Jesus is the Son of God and that the resurrection happened as described in the Bible?
To a large degree, yes. Gnostic nonrecognition of hierarchal authority was premised principally on the view that the resurrection was spiritual, not physical. The resurrected Christ could therefore be encountered and experienced by the laity, and was not an exclusive event experienced by the apostles.
By taking this view, the apostolic succession upon which the authority of the bishops, priests and deacons was based was undermined.
You can find many eyewitnesses that will testify they have seen Elvis still alive. The difference in the resurrection evidence is its reliability. Reliability of the Bible is based on many crossing lines including evidence from archaeology, internal consistency, predictive prophecy, corroborating external documents, quantity of consistent copies and many others. Many non-believers have begun a quest to disprove the evidence only to become convinced of the opposite.
You can read the first chapter on line.
No, but I can provide written accounts.
Does this mean you only accept living witness testimony ? Apparently you would not accept a will. Or for that matter, the deed to your land cannot be verified without living witnesses. You have a very high threshold for evidence. Much higher than the average person. How do you manage yor affairs by always needing to verify with a living witness??
Like I said about reliability of witnesses...
This is why it's called, "faith", isn't it?
My faith in God requires no scientific evidence and no eyewitnesses.
But, unlike you, I'm not about to call my faith anything but what it is.
Then you must believe the Easter Bunny brings eggs and the tooth fairy puts coins under your pillow and that when you wish upon a star your dreams come true.
Faith without evidence is delusions.
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