Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

To: MWS

[ but is that your opinion, or do you presume to know the workings of the mind and will of God? ]

Nicely written and slickly condescending(the whole post).. i.e. it took effort..

I'm not as nice or slick, could be, but ain't, not my style, especially on a political forum like this... and my only patrony of you will be responding at all.. I have no wish to engage in two monologues.. or in a flame war with the indoctrinated.. either with a Roman Catholic or any other kind of catholic(various or protestant)..

But you do pose an interesting question.. and an attempt at an answer is warranted here, I think..

Basically what you're askin me (in my mind) is; How did I get so smart to make such a statement or imply that; "the real god doesn't like religion any of them".?.

Well, I'm gonna tell ya...
Half in jest (to make it interesting to me), and half as a serious engagement (as an intellectual test to myself). Be not deceived that I have any hope of convincing anybody of anything.. I don't.. Dogma is a strong drug to people.. as Marx and Lenin have throughly proven.. People can switch dogma but getting clean is hard. You posited a fine question nevertheless..

Looking at it one way, biblically, it all started when "the people" came top Moses and said, "We want a "government/ religion like all the other people around us.. thereby rejecting God as their supreme leader and wanting a social structure like the Amelkites, Canaanites, Egyptians and other primitive social structures around them at the time.. After a severe warning (as the bible recounts) from God. The big guy said said, OK, but you must do it this way.. and provided the design for the new renagade system of government/religion..

And The Jews proceeded (for the next several centuries) to prove that human government and religion were beyond mankinds ability to control and follow by any means.. For government and religion are two sides of the same coin.. Morality forced from different angles upon a sliding scale of whatever was politically correct at the time.. Being PC is not a new invention..

(fast foward) God eventually left the ark of the covenant and instructed Jeremiah(some say) to take the ark away thereby obliterating the very reason and basis for Judaism but Judaism continued as a religion.. same thing happened when Jesus(ark) was removed.. Which is to say; a relationship with the god with no name, should be a relationship with no name.. You can't "bag" a REAL god.. Any religion can function without a god, proved by so many religions that don't have a "real" god anyways.. and function quite well.. Religion always was and is a corporation, a human organization that claims to have some "god" tied up in an iron clad contract.. And in the case of "Christian" religions are Used Jesus Salesmen.. or in some, Pre-Owned Jesus Salesmen.. with the insurance provided for an addtional and not nominal charge.. With the jews today its the same story but operate like a "Saturn(auto) Dealer". no haggling.. what you see is what you get.. pay up, and shut up.. Refreshing really..

**NOTE..
I could have gone much further but it dawned on me that I am talking to the dogmatically inhibited.. and the only ones that may get any use from this display are me and few lurkers.. maybe.. But it was good question.. Ex-Cathedra speaking is an art, as many Popes have proven.. Just open your mouth and speak.. and some idiot will take it as out of the mouth of God himself.. I don't do it well, but really, who cares.?.


145 posted on 04/05/2005 10:36:39 AM PDT by hosepipe (This Propaganda has been edited to include not a small amount of Hyperbole..)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 136 | View Replies ]


To: hosepipe
LOL... I enjoyed your post. I guess I just have a condescending writing style - at any rate, I meant no offense.

Your comments about dogma are spot on. Deeply held beliefs of any sort can be a strong drug to people, and can serve as an inhibition to any dialog. I can appreciate the difficulty involved with conversing with one who believes he is absolutely right regarding a particular matter, as it is impossible to convince someone of something when they do not wish to be convinced. I am glad you have taken the time to try regardless!

I suppose I am just a little confused about several points in your post. First, you said:

"Looking at it one way, biblically, it all started when "the people" came top Moses and said, "We want a "government/ religion like all the other people around us.. thereby rejecting God as their supreme leader and wanting a social structure like the Amelkites, Canaanites, Egyptians and other primitive social structures around them at the time.. After a severe warning (as the bible recounts) from God. The big guy said said, OK, but you must do it this way.. and provided the design for the new renagade system of government/religion..

I am not entirely certain to what you are refering here. It sounds as though you have the story of God giving the Law confused with the institution of the Hebrew Kingship. There was no warning against the former - God called Moses to the top of the mountain in order to give him the Law. The Law forms the basis of the Hebrew faith and is ultimately given to man so that we can know that we can never live up to the standards of God. It is the sign of God's righteousness, which we learn that we cannot justify ourselves purely through our own works and efforts. In addition, it was given to the people of God as a means to set them apart from the rest of the world. But there is no suggestion in Scripture that God resisted the idea of giving the Law itself... in fact, the text suggests it was part of the Divine Plan all along.

The institution of the Hebrew Kings, however, was suggested against, and the Jews insisted on it anyway, a request to which God eventually obliged. But the Law, the basis of the Jewish religion, was already well in place at that time, as it was well after the institution of the Torah. Thus, I am not certain how the cases to which you refer prove that God disapproves of religion. God wanted the Hebrews to follow His Law all along.

God removed the Ark not as a means to remove the Jewish religion, but rather because of the attitudes that were extended towards the ark itself. The basis for the Jewish religion was the Law itself, based upon the covenant God established with the Jewish people. The loss of the ark did not cause a single letter of the Hebrew law to pass.

We should also note that God is not the author of rebellion, as God is the source of lawfulness. God would not establish a system abhorrent to Himself, as God cannot sin against Himself. (Omnipotence does not mean God can violate His own nature.)

I am not quite certain why you say God has no name: in the Old Testament he reveals it to be YHWH. In addition, many of the points you make ultimately beg the question from the outset: you basically seem to be arguing that God would not create a religion because religions are and always have been human made institutions.

As you astutely point out, it is unlikely that we will come to an agreement here, but are both posting for the benefit of lurkers. I would not go so far as to say that the inability on either of our parts to change our positions is due to obstinance, but rather upon a fundamental difference in certain starting premises. At any rate, I always enjoy the exchange of ideas!

161 posted on 04/05/2005 4:16:00 PM PDT by MWS (Errare humanum est, in errore perservare stultum.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 145 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson