NYC:The truth on bar smoking ban

Times Argus ^ | 3-4-05 | Amy McCloskey

[SheLion]

In reference to the story "Smoking ban for bars on Legislative agenda" on Feb. 14 by John Zicconi, all I can say is "Hogwash."

I own a successful bar in Greenwich Village. In 2004, we were voted the Best Lounge in New York by CitySearch. My business is down 30 percent since 2002. Since nothing has changed but the smoking ban, I can attribute this precipitous drop to nothing else.

It's remarkable to read that "A New York City official on Thursday will travel to Vermont to testify that Big Apple pub receipts have increased 12 percent since the city's ban went into affect in 2003" since not even Mayor Bloomberg has been able to wrestle the actual statistic for bars ONLY out of the state's finance department. The information they're peddling combines tax receipts for bars and restaurants — including places like McDonalds and Starbucks. This is like comparing a wolf to a Shih Tzu; anyone with any sense knows they're completely different beasts.

New York officials are doing their level best to cover up the fact that for many small businesses the smoking ban is an unmitigated disaster. They say that compliance is at 98 percent. That's such utter nonsense I don't even know where to begin. They say that no one is hurting, using tax information that cannot possibly represent the truth, while fines for noise complaints and capricious health code violations slowly pick away at our sanity.

All I can say is this: I'm a life-long non-smoker and I hated the way my bar smelled. I, too, figured that I'd wait and see. That it couldn't be THAT bad. I've had to cut eight staff, the ones left work fewer hours, and I haven't taken a paycheck since August. It's that bad.

The pub owners in Vermont need to pull their heads out of the sand in time to save themselves. Or, like us, they'll be fighting for their livelihoods while their plight is actively ignored by those who might help.

This includes, by the way, the media, which seems to have jumped onto the no-smoking bandwagon with both feet and no regard for journalistic integrity. Frankly, I'd be surprised if an opposing viewpoint ever sees the light of day.

Amy McCloskey New York, N.Y.

[garyhope]

Funny that both my parents smoked like chimneys and I've never smoked, not even one cigarette. My mom died from emphysema. At one point, she said that she'd rather smoke than breathe.

I'm not interested in telling anyone what to do or how to live, except for not making too much noise after bedtime, driving slow in the fast lane, not putting their feet on the furniture, talking too loudly on their cell phone and I think it would be nice if men took their hats off inside or when eating. "Please" and "Thank you" would be nice too.

[SheLion]

No electric bull there. Actually, it's a new "Irish" pub named "Finn McCools". It was an instant success, filled everynight from the moment it opened. Find a need, fill it, =$ success $.

Well, that's great. I'm happy to hear it!! :)

[SheLion]

I'm a musician who has been playing the NYC clubs for years. Anyone who tells you the smoking ban dosenet have a NEGATIVE effect on business is full of SH*T. Bloombergs logic for it was to keep bar employees from breathing smoke. I've YET to meet the bar employee who believes that or cares.They wouldn't be in the bar business in the first place if cigarette smoke bothered them and everyone of them will tell you so.The mayor feels he bought NYC just like another company he owns. He hates cigaretts and thats that ..PERIOD. Last summer people were complaining that there were crowds outside the clubs and smoke was getting into their open windows. The cops started chasing smokers from the from of clubs.What a mess. A lot of kids now take the Path trains to NJ where it's still civilized and people can have a beer and a smoke.PS Im a non smoker.

Oh yes!  Bars, nightclubs, disco's have always ALWAYS gone hand-in-hand with smoking.  Anyone who took a job in one knew right from the start that they would be subject to cigarette smoke.  If smoking bothered them, they would not take that job.

There is an article about BloomingIdiot going over to Turkey for a visit.  He sat on his butt with his shoes off in the tents with the Turkey big wigs.  Everyone was smoking all around Bloomberg and he didn't say one word.  But when it's on his own turf, HE is the boss.  He is a disgusting creature.  It's the Mayor's job to run the city's business and NOT the business of the city.

Ah, New England. Doncha love it?!

[TAdams8591]

They're covering up what a disaster the smoking ban is?????

Gee, I'm surprised. /sarcasm

[TexasCowboy]

"I'm not interested in telling anyone what to do or how to live, except for not making too much noise after bedtime, driving slow in the fast lane, not putting their feet on the furniture, talking too loudly on their cell phone and I think it would be nice if men took their hats off inside or when eating. "Please" and "Thank you" would be nice too."

Those are the exact values with which I was raised.
So many things irritate me about men today.
If I had sat down at the table with a hat on, my mother would have slapped me silly.
If I had asked for the salt and didn't say "please" and "thank you" I would have gotten a tongue lashing.
If I had preceded a woman into a door without holding it open for her first, I would have gotten a thirty minute lecture on manners, and that's what it's all about - manners!

At the same time, if I had ever told my dad that his cigarette smoke from his roll ur owns was bothering me, he'd have told me to go sit outside and shutup.

It's a live and let live world, and it all comes back to manners.

[TAdams8591]

Sounds like FUN, and my kind of place!

[CarolTX]

The "Ban-Smoking" train is going full speed in Austin.

Last year, the City Council passed a ban on smoking in restaurants...but bars could still have it...under very limited circumstances..AND the bar owner had to pay for special "smoking permit."
All this was worked out by lengthy negotiations between the City, anti-smoking groups, and the restaurant & bar owners. Everybody happy, including some (a few) establishments that decided to go non-smoking.

Then, just a few weeks ago, here come the anti-smokers with a petition drive to force a complete citywide ban. The bar owners are furious that the negotiated agreement was tossed aside after only months of operation.

After various legal challenges & maneuvers, we're going to have an election on this.

I constantly hear people calling the local talk shows saying "Well, I never go out to clubs...but if there's a smoking ban, I might start." HUH? I'm sure that's great comfort to the pub owners who are looking at the loss of existing business...but they MIGHT get some new customers as replacements.

Austin agressively markets its bar/music scene...it's a BIG part of the tourism $$$. I so wish there were some hard numbers on business loss from some of these cities who already have a ban, since I doubt most non-smokers would vote for this ban if they knew it would be seriously hurting (if not killing) the golden goose.

[SheLion]

Smoking has been banned in DALLAS! Just like NYC! Of course, Dallas is run (poorly) by Dims in all important places. Mayor, most of the city council, most all community leaders. Dallas (the city), Dallas (the school district), Dallas (the crime rate) are also a disaster compared to most cities in and around the area - 'nuf. said!

That's right!  And San Antonio as well.  The River walk.......no smoking.  How sad.  This is really pathetic.  Texas better watch it.  The whole state will be smoke free before you know it.

I made this plate awhile back when Texas started with their smoking bans.  So if you live in an area of Texas that still allows smoking, you better warn the business owner's they better watch out for the anti's.  If the anti's were able to force bans in some areas of Texas, they will continue pushing until the whole state is smoke free.

But with all the big guys with guns in Texas, I sure wouldn't tell any of you NOT to smoke. heh! :)

[fat city]

Cleveland is considering a ban. And you know that if Cleveland is considering it, the potential for economic disaster is colossal. Even Toledo had the sense to repeal theirs.

[SheLion]

That's it in a nutshell. The liberal antis have taken over the bigger cities.

Better be careful.  The anti's will have a stranglehold on the whole state before you know it.

That's how Maine started out.  In 2000, they forced all restaurants to go smoke free.  Then last January of 2004 they forced a total smoking ban on the whole state.  It hasn't been pretty.

Maine is one of the poorest states in the Union, and the smoking bans are killing the economy.  As if the economy hasn't been bad enough as it is.

[SheLion]

Of course, we can never dispute the logic of liberal antis:

Oh she's a goose!

[SheLion]

We don't go there anymore, though, because of the ban. I'll stay at home and pour my own drinks.

Well, the forced smoking bans in "some" cities but not all makes the business owners mad at the cities around them that still have smoking areas.  Because the smokers are going to the cities where they can smoke.  So the business owner's in the smoke free zones start screaming that they want to allow smoking again or shut down smoking in the surrounding areas for a "level playing field."

That's how the anti's work.  They pit towns against towns until the whole state is smoke free.

[SouthTexas]

Was in Austin several years ago. We ate in a restaurant that was non smoking. Really wondered about the open pit BBQ in the middle of the place burning mesquite, but no smoking. These people are clueless.

[Hillary's Lovely Legs]

Smokers go outside to grab a cigarette and they just keep going leaving a tab.

That would not only make them smokers, but thieves as well.

[SheLion]

They're covering up what a disaster the smoking ban is?????

Sure.  And the general public believes it!  When you have 25-30% of the state that smokes that leaves an awful lot of people that don't, and they will believe anything.  Until they go to their favorite haunt some night and it's closed. Then they will ask why.

Too late!

[SheLion]

Then, just a few weeks ago, here come the anti-smokers with a petition drive to force a complete citywide ban. The bar owners are furious that the negotiated agreement was tossed aside after only months of operation.

My favorite place to eat almost closed their doors after the first smoking ban in Maine in 2000.

The owner then invested in a very expensive liquor license and business started to boom again.

They then remodeled.  The place is beautiful.  4 big ceiling air purifiers.  Full menu.  A beautiful glass enclosed non-smoking section.  Sign on the entrance door "This is a smoking establishment.  No one under 18 admitted without guardian."

It is a Sports Bar with the full computer golf game across the back wall;  bunch of big TV's.  Just beautiful.

But that still wasn't good enough for the state.  A full no smoking ban went into effect a year ago January.  I went once after the ban, was so miserable that I couldn't sit there like old times and enjoy the evening that I haven't put myself through that again.

And do you think the state will reimburse this business owner for spending his own money to be able to accommodate everyone?  You can bet they will not.

[CarolTX]

Yeah, and that's the best part.
The way the Austin Ban-smoking petition is worded, it would prohibit open-pit BBQs (like you described) AND possibly things like the dining room grills you see at Benihana.

[SheLion]

I constantly hear people calling the local talk shows saying "Well, I never go out to clubs...but if there's a smoking ban, I might start." HUH? I'm sure that's great comfort to the pub owners who are looking at the loss of existing business...but they MIGHT get some new customers as replacements.

Austin agressively markets its bar/music scene...it's a BIG part of the tourism $$$. I so wish there were some hard numbers on business loss from some of these cities who already have a ban, since I doubt most non-smokers would vote for this ban if they knew it would be seriously hurting (if not killing) the golden goose.

The Economics of Smoking Bans

(excerpt) Even if the EPA is right and ETS is harmful, does this justify government’s telling property owners they can’t allow smoking on their premises? According to smoke-free advocates, the answer is an unadulterated yes. New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg, who favors banning smoking in New York City bars, restaurants, and even outdoor cafes, puts the case this way: “Common sense and common decency demand . . . the need to breathe clean air is more important than the license to pollute it.” (Does this mean we should also ban all other “non-essential” activities that pollute, such as pleasure boating, family vacations, and motorcycle rides?)

THE REAL FACTS OF THE SMOKING BANS IMPACT ON BUSINESS'S
The Facts

The Facts About The Smoking Ban. If you're a business owner or not, this is a must read!

[SouthTexas]

At least that would make sense and not the BS I experienced.

They need to go ahead and ban everything ans watch everything close down, Once their revenue dries up, they might come to their senses. (Heavy on the MIGHT.

[SheLion]

CALIFORNIA: 5-year-old ban in bars leaves owners, customers fuming

NYC's Bar Business: Up In Smoke?

23 December 2002

As a manager of a Manhattan bar, I can easily point out the dramatic drop in business which will occur when the ban commences. Not only is my bar going to lose business, but how about the extra security that I'm going to be forced to hire to control people outside of my establishment when they go outside to smoke? Or what about the noise complaints I'll receive due to drunken smokers chatting outside at 3 a.m.?

Smoking Bans Burn Business (In Delaware)

15 December 2002

Dan McAvaney, owner of McAvaney's Pub on Kirkwood Highway, said small bar owners have no choice but to fight.

"Another couple of months of this," he said pointing to a nearly empty bar on a Thursday night, "and we go out of business."

article here

Smoke claim disputed

November 7, 2002

Dr Proctor said passive smoking could cause problems for asthmatics and there were people who did not want to be exposed to cigarette smoke but there was no scientific basis for a ban in public.
click here

Tempe (Arizona) bar revenue down 20 percent after smoking ban

27 October 2002

The recently reported sales for August show that bars suffered a 20.4 percent decline and July's collections were off 33.2 percent.
article here

Restaurants Fighting Proposed Smoking Ordinance (Albuquerque, N.M.)
22 October 2002

About 100 bar and restaurant owners are opposing a measure that would ban smoking in bars and all sections of restaurants in Albuquerque. The owners gathered yesterday at an Albuquerque nightclub, vowing to fight the proposal.

click here

Restaurant sales taxes in Tempe tumble in June

The Arizona Republic Aug. 13, 2002

Bar owners say they continue to be hit hard, with sales down 20 percent to 40 percent since Tempe went smoke-free.

"We don't get any new customers saying, 'We're thrilled because there's no smoking,' " said Michael Cuneo, owner of Ball Park Pub.

Non-smoker Armando Kiyama, 29, a Tempe artist, said he is ambivalent about the ban."I'm glad I don't go home and smell like smoke anymore," he said, adding, "I don't think that it's right for businesses to have their choice taken away from them in their own facilities."

story here

Smoking Ban Puts Restaurant Profits Up In Smoke/They Finally Admit It!

Boston - June 18, 2002

Restaurant owners said that they've lived with these new regulations for three months with devastating consequences.

"I would say we lost 30 to 40 percent of our business right off top since March 1, and it happened that day," restaurant owner Mike Difeo said.

article here

California Smokers Use Prohibition Tactics to Get Around Ban

While cops try to sniff out the worst offenders, in many cases they're butting up against organized opposition. Bartender phone trees warn each other of impending busts, powerful fans blow away tell-tale scents of "smokin' in the boys room" and tin cans double as ashtrays in case of an unexpected visit by police.

click here

Smoking ban ignites Maine rebellion

BIDDEFORD, Maine

SMOKING BAN IMPACT ON CALIFORNIA RESTAURANTS

That is the real impact of the smoking ban. So if you hear of anyone saying that the smoking ban in restaurants and bars does not hurt anybody, you can quote my figures, which are based on the official reports issued by the State Board of Equalization here in California.

Otto J. Mueksch
President, Californians For Smokers Rights 

And so many more more.