Your cases are NOT analogous.
So, in your view it is not a violation of the Constituion to starve and dehydrate an innocent woman to death but it is cruel and unusual to sentence a murderer to death?
Such a childish strawman. I'm flabbergasted.
Posted on 03/01/2005 7:21:16 AM PST by Next_Time_NJ
The Supreme Court ruled Tuesday that the Constitution forbids the execution of killers who were under 18 when they committed their crimes, ending a practice used in 19 states.
The 5-4 decision throws out the death sentences of about 70 juvenile murderers and bars states from seeking to execute minors for future crimes.
The executions, the court said, were unconstitutionally cruel.
This report will be updated as details become available.
Your cases are NOT analogous.
So, in your view it is not a violation of the Constituion to starve and dehydrate an innocent woman to death but it is cruel and unusual to sentence a murderer to death?
Such a childish strawman. I'm flabbergasted.
This is the teenage contract killers employment act of 2005. It is already common place for teens to be recruited to perform contract killings because of their immunity to the death penalty. The goofs in black have ensured and endorsed the practice.
My guess is that their decision was based on an interpertation of the 8th amendment, which reads
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.
Right. So how is that different than a justice looking at the phrasing of, say, the Australian constitution (a document that was based in large part on the US constitution) for the interpretation of similar language, like due process?
If your answer is that the Australian constitution was written in 1900, and thus the US Constitution wasn't based on it, I think it's hard to make that argument, because the founders clearly rejected a MAJOR premise of the common law when drafting the constitution; that is, that parliament can override the common law. I don't think you can compare the common law to the constitution because the common law wasn't binding on parliament; the constitution is.
The British common law of free press at the time of the adoption of the constitution meant that you didn't have to get a license from the government to print your newspaper. The government can and did punish for printing certain things. But I think it's pretty clear that the founders, with the first amendment, intended to protect against more than just licensing--indeed; the uproar surrounding the Sedition Act of 1798 indicates this.
Again, I don't have a problem with Scalia citing foreign sources. But then again, I don't have a problem with consideration of foreign sources at all. I think it's legitimate to look at how others deal with problems. I don't think we should go through life with blinders on just because we didn't think up an idea. I think the problem comes in when people begin to rely on foreign law as somehow binding.
Actually, I think we will reap what they sow.
Thank you, that was my point to the other poster.
but it clearly exceeded the bounds of their legitimate power when it looked to international law and its own perception of "moral trends" instead of original meaning to define the term "cruel and unusual" in this instance.
No, their power to decide was legitimate, you may disagree with their reasoning for the decision. I agree with you on how they got to their decision.
I never defended their decision making process. Please do not imply that I did.
I said, the decision was right, the age was wrong. I stand by that.
If I told you it was their business to decide that executing a five year old was cruel and unusual punishment and you disagreed, Oh well.
"Then amend the Eighth Amendment. If there's such a popular groundswell of support for executing minor criminals, it ought to be easy."
There is no need to amend anything, if one likes things as they are. The Supreme Court has the final say in all things American. That's just the truth. No legal maneuvering can change that, because all legal argument is subject to the final opinion of the Supreme Court...so the appeal on any issue in contention is back to an interested party in the dispute.
The only way to address this issue directly is for the other branches of government to assert limits on the Supreme Court. The catch is that any such assertion on their part will be called ILLEGAL and UNCONSTITUTIONAL by the Supreme Court itself, because the Court has the final say on all things in American government and law.
Once such a ruling comes down, the covalent branches have to stick to their guns, refuse to enforce the decision, and pronounce the Supreme Court's verdict itself unconstitutional, because the Supreme Court has abused power and claimed authority it does not have in that specific instance.
The only way to alter the balance of power, in which the Supremes are the Final Authority in America, is by establishing the precedent that they do NOT, and that when they render decisions that exceed their authority, they act illegally and their decisions are void.
There are two ways to do this.
One is very hard: impeach the judges.
The other is much simpler: defy the Court and explain to the public in detail WHY the Court has abused its authority and WHY the Court does not in fact have the power to order a decision like that AT ALL in the first place.
I do not see any such confrontation anywhere on the horizon.
Look at it this way: the gutless wonders in the majority in the Senate are not even going to use the so-called "Nuclear Option" to get the President's slate of judges through. If they are unwilling to use power they very clearly have, will ANY of them have the spine to stand up institutionally to the Supreme Court?
Laughable.
With this USSC ruling in hand, we'll see the DP completely eliminated. Those convicted and given the DP will file suit under the equal protection clause, claiming if it's cruel punishment for those under 18, it's cruel punishment for all.
Just wait and watch.
I'm waiting for mine to get here via a conservo book club!
WTF - what constitution is the Sup Court reading????????? Time to take back the court this is supreme bullsh*t!!!!!!!
I dunno?
I thought I read what I read.
The constitution is not a intricate document.
It only addresses the cruel and unusual punishment aspect. It does not have exceptions or allowances.
So, they have some basis for their decisions, but as I stated, they have once again dictated to the states, and that can be argued. Certainly, not all these cases of juvenile killers are ones that would fall into unusual, or cruel.
But there only has to be one. I argue this on a much higher plane however. I would think that that capital punishment,a necessary aspect of our past, is now only a remnant.
I would argue that it is nothing more than victim revenge, and provides no other social function any longer.
I think we can do without it entirely. But, in the case of a juvi crime, it should be pretty easy to accept some limits.
I am still trying to process all the various complaints voiced on this thread and I find them very confusing indeed.
But carry on! On this forum today, you can find people advocating the military on our borders to shoot illegal migrants, saving a woman with no brain from her husbands attempts to let her pass on, Saving babies from abortion while advocating death to kids who commit murder.
All in the name of life!
I dunno, but something seems wrong to me. But that is just me I suppose. Perhaps Hannity was right.......Naw.....
"rest of their lives"
Until that is overturned in your state.
Don't have life in prison in my state.
http://www.counterpunch.org/cassel02102003.html
February 10, 2003
The Politics of the Death Penalty
Did the Beltway Sniper Case Cause the Supreme Court to Cower?
The liberals on the court were waiting their chance.
Kennedy joined them...basing his decision on a reasoning that he pulled straight out of his a**.
Post #53 LOLOLOLOLOL!
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=205&scid=27
CASE SUMMARIES OF JUVENILE OFFENDERS ON DEATH ROW IN THE UNITED STATES
ALABAMA (14)
(Last Juvenile Execution: November 24, 1961)
Adams, Ranaldo: Black male; age 17 at crime and now age 23 (DOB: 7-1-1980); rape, robbery, burglary, and murder; sentenced on 12-11-1998.
Bonds, James Willis: Black male; age 16 at crime and now age 20 (DOB: 7-24-1983); robbery and murder of white male age 59 in Houston County on 9-?-1999; sentenced on 11-11-2002.
Davis, Timothy Charles: White male; age 17 at crime and now age 43 (DOB: 3-18-1961); robbery of store and rape and murder of white female age 60 in Coosa County on 7-20-1978; sentenced on 7-28-1980.
Duke, Mark Anthony: White male; age 16 at crime and now age 23 (DOB: 5-15-1980); murder of white male age 39 (his father), white female age 29, white female age 7, and white female age 6 in Pelham (Shelby Co.) on 3-22-1997; sentenced on 3-25-1999.
Duncan, Trace: White male; age 17 at crime and now age 27 (DOB: 11-15-1976); kidnaping and murder of white female age 37 in St. Clair County on 2-22-1994; sentenced on 3-8-1996.
Hart, Gary Davis II: Black male; age 16 at crime and now age 31 (DOB: 9-19-1972); robbery and murder of white male age 22 in Mobile on 8-12-1989; sentenced on 5-9-1990.
Hyde, James Matthew: White male; age 17 at crime and now age 27 (DOB: 3-2-1977); murder of white male age 36 (police officer) in Albertville (Marshall County) on 1-24-1995; sentenced on 7-9-1996.
Knotts, William Thomas: White male; age 17 at crime and now age 32 (DOB: 11-20-1971); burglary and murder of black female age 37 in Montgomery County on 10-18-1989; sentenced on 8-1-1992.
Loggins, Kenneth: White male; age 17 at crime and now age 26 (DOB: 9-15-1976); kidnaping and murder of white female age 37 in St. Clair County on 2-22-1994; sentenced on 3-8-1996.
Neal, John Lionel: White male; age 16 at crime and now 33 (DOB: 7-13-1964); robbery and murder of a white female age 77 in Foley (Baldwin County) on 2-16-1987; sentenced in May 1990, reversed in 1992; resentenced on 4-9-1994.
Pressley, Marcus Dewayne: Black male; age 16 at crime and now age 25 (DOB: 11-24-1978); robbery and murder of white male age 44 and white female age 48 in Sterrett (Shelby County) on 7-25-1996; sentenced on 10-10-1997.
Slaton, Nathan D.: White male; age 17 at crime and now age 34 (DOB: 10-5-1969); rape and murder of white female age 68 in Albertville (Marshall County) on 5-28-1987; sentenced 5-22-1990.
Wimberly, Shaber Chamond: Black male; age 17 at crime and now age 24 (DOB: 9-6-1979); murder of white male age 67 and white female age 53 in Midland City on 1-27-1997; sentenced on 7-30-1998; reversed in 1999; resentenced to death on 5-?-2001.
Wynn, Gregory: Black male; age 17 at crime and now age 24 (DOB: 2-9-1981); robbery and murder of female age 30 in Anniston on 4-8-1998; sentenced on 9-17-1999.
ARIZONA (4)
(Last Execution of a Juvenile: July 6, 1934)
Aguilar, Tonatihu: Latin male; age 16 at crime and now age 24 (DOB: 2-11-1980); murder of Latin male age 28 and Latin female age 28 in Phoenix on 10-15-1996; sentenced on 6-19-2003
Jackson, Levi Jaimes: White male; age 16 at crime and now age 28 (DOB: 1-15-1976); car jacking and murder of white female age 40 in rural Pima County on 12-7-1992; sentenced on 1-26-1994.
Laird, Kenneth Jeremy: White male; age 17 at crime and now age 29 (DOB: 3-21-1975); burglary, robbery and murder of white female age 37 in North Phoenix on 9-3-1992; sentenced on 4-15-1994.
Soto-Fong, Martin Raul: Chinese/Latin male; age 17 at crime and now age 29 (DOB: 10-6-1974); robbery and murder of 3 Asian males, ages 32, 45, and 77, in Pima County (Tucson) on 6-24-1992; sentenced on 2-3-1994.
FLORIDA (3)
(Last Execution of a Juvenile: November 8, 1954)
Bonifay, James Patrick: White male; age 17 at crime and now age 30 (DOB: 12-26-1973); robbery and murder of white male age 36 in Pensacola on 1-26-1991; sentenced on 9-20-1991; reversed in 1993; resentenced to death on 12-6-1994.
LeCroy, Cleo Douglas: White male; age 17 at crime and now age 41 (DOB: 3-7-1963); robbery and murder of white male age 27 and white female age 25 in Palm Beach County on 1-4-1981; sentenced on 10-1-1986.
Ramirez, Nathan: Latin male; age 17 at crime and now age 26 (DOB: 4-22-1977); rape and murder of white female age 71 in New Port Richey on 3-7-1995; sentenced on 11-8-1996; reversed in 1999; resentenced on 12-13-2003.
GEORGIA (2)
(Last Execution of a Juvenile: December 7, 1993)
Gibson, Exzavious Lee: Black male; age 17 at crime and now age 31 (DOB: 3-31-1972); robbery and murder of male age 46 in Eastman (Dodge County) on 2-2-1990; sentenced on 6-14-1990.
Jenkins, Larry Leonarde: Black male; age 17 at crime and now age 28 (DOB: 11-10-1975); robbery, kidnaping and murder of white female age 37 and white male age 15 in Jessup (Wayne County) on 1-9-1993; sentenced on 9-30-1995.
LOUISIANA (4)
(Last Execution of a Juvenile: May 18, 1990)
Bridgewater, Roy: Black male; age 17 at crime and now age 24; burglary and murder of white female age 70 and white male age 45 in Marrero (Jefferson Parish) on 10-31-1996; sentenced on 3-1-1999.
Craig, Dale Dwayne: White male; age 17 at crime and now age 29 (DOB: 9-22-1974); car-jacking and murder of white male age 18 in Baton Rouge on 9-14-1992; sentenced on 1-13-1995.
Howard, Cedric D'Wayne: Black male; age 16 at crime and now age 25 (DOB: 6-6-1978); robbery and murder of white female age 82 on 10-24-1994; sentenced on 7-14-1997.
Wilson, Aaron: Black male; age 17 at crime and now age 20; kidnaping, robbery, rape, and murder of white female age 48 in Caddo Parish on 12-23-2000; sentenced on 9-25-2002.
MISSISSIPPI (5)
(Last Execution of a Juvenile: May 25, 1950)
Dycus, Kelvin: White male; age 17 at crime and now age 24 (DOB: 9-19-1979); robbery and murder of female age 76 on 9-24-1996; sentenced on 6-19-1998.
Eskridge, Roderick: Black male; age 17 at crime and now age 24 (DOB: 1-25-1980); robbery and murder of female age 34 in Grenada County on 12-2-1997; sentenced on 1-26-1999.
Foster, Ronald Chris: Black male; age 17 at crime and now age 32 (DOB: 1-8-1972) robbery and murder of white male adult in Lowndes County on 6-10-1989; sentenced on 1-18-1991.
Holly, William Joseph: White male; age 17 at crime and now age 29 (DOB: 8-6-1974); robbery and murder of black male age 37 in Grenada County on 7-12-1992; sentenced on 3-3-1993.
McGilberry, Stephen Virgil: American Indian/white male; age 16 at crime and now age 26 (DOB: 2-7-1978); four death sentences for murders of white female age 44 (his mother), white male age 44 (his stepfather), white female age 24 (his stepsister), and white male age 3 (his stepsister's son) in St. Martin (Jackson County) on 10-23-1994; sentenced on 2-9-1996.
NEVADA (1)
(Last Execution of a Juvenile: April 22, 1949)
Domingues, Michael (AKA Miguel): Latin male; age 16 at crime and now age 27 (DOB: 1-29-1977); burglary, theft, and murder of Asian female age 24 and Asian male age 4 in Las Vegas on 10-22-1993; sentenced on 9-16-1994.
NORTH CAROLINA (4)
(Last Execution of a Juvenile: October 30, 1942)
Adams, Thomas Mark: White male; age 17 at crime and now age 33 (DOB: 7-20-1970); robbery and murder of white female age 70 in Iredell County on 12-13-1987; sentenced on 11-19-1988; reversed in 1994; resentenced to death on 9-1-1995.
Chapman, Lamorris J.: Black male; age 17 at crime and now age 21 (DOB: 12-12-1982); murder of black female age 16 in Johnston County on 7-9-2000; sentenced on 11-2-2001.
Golphin, Kevin Salvador: Black male; age 17 at crime and now age 24 (DOB: 12-26-1979); murder of white male age 48 (Highway Patrol officer) and white male age 58 (Sheriff's Corporal) near Fayetteville on 9-23-1997; sentenced on 5-13-1998.
Walters, Travis LeVance: Black male; age 17 at crime and now age 23 (DOB: 7-8-1980); murder of American Indian female age 18 in Lumberton on 1-6-1998; sentenced on 4-5-2001.
PENNSYLVANIA (2)
(Last Execution of a Juvenile: December 4, 1916)
Hughes, Kevin: Black male; age 16 at crime and now age 42 (DOB: 3-5-1962); rape and murder of black female age 9 in Philadelphia on 3-1-1979; sentenced on 10-27-1983.
Lee, Percy: Black male; age 17 at crime and now age 35 (DOB: 8-24-1968); murder of two black females, ages 17 and 33, in Philadelphia on 2-27-1986; sentenced on 1-28-1988.
SOUTH CAROLINA (3)
(Last Execution of a Juvenile: January 10, 1986)
Hughes, Herman Lee, Jr.: Black male; age 16 at crime and now age 25 (DOB: 7-26-1977); robbery and murder of male age 20 in Orangeburg on 3-18-1994; sentenced in 1995.
Morgan, Eric Dale: White male; age 17 at crime and now age 21; robbery and murder of white male age 57 near Woodruff (Spartanburg County) on 5-3-2000; sentenced on 3-9-2004.
Powers, Ted Benjamin: White male; age 16 at crime and now age 29 (DOB: 9-19-1973); burglary, robbery, and murder of white male age 68 in Lexington County on 9-8-1990; sentenced on 2-23-1996.
TEXAS (29)
(Last Execution of a Juvenile: August 28, 2002)
Acuna, Robert Aaron: Latin male; age 17 at crime and now 18; robberies and murders of adult white (?) male age 75 and white (?) female age 74 in Baytown (Harris County) on 11-11-2003; sentenced on 8-11-2004
Alvarado, Steven Brian: Latin male; age 17 at crime and now age 29 (DOB: 8-11-1974); robberies and murders of adult Latin male and adult Latin female in El Paso on 9-22-1991; sentenced on 10-5-1993.
Arroyo, Randy: Latin male; age 17 at crime and now age 24 (DOB: 10-31-1979); kidnaping and murder of Latin male age 39 on 3-11-1997 in San Antonio; sentenced on 3-6-1998.
Arthur, Mark Sam: White male; age 17 at crime and now age 24 (DOB: 8-1-1979); murder of Latin male age 41 in Harris County on 12-21-1996; sentenced on 12-17-1997.
Barraza, Mauro Morris: Latin male; age 17 at crime and now age 31 (DOB: 5-5-1972); robbery and murder of white female age 73 in Haltom City (Tarrant County) on 6-14-1989; sentenced on 4-8-1991.
Bernal, Johnnie: Latin male; age 17 at crime and now age 27 (DOB: 8-20-1976); murder of white (?) male age 19 in Houston on 8-19-1994; sentenced on 5-8-1995.
Capetillo, Edward Brian: Latin male; age 17 at crime and now age 26 (DOB: 5-13-1977); murders of white male age 19 and white female age 20 in Harris County on 1-16-1995; sentenced on 2-6-1996.
Cobb, Raymond Levi: White male; age 17 at crime and now age 27 (DOB: 6-18-1976); murders of white female age 23 and white female age 16 months in Huntsville on 12-27-1993; sentenced on 2-27-1997; reversed in 2000; resentenced to death in 2001.
Dewberry, John Curtis: White male; age 17 at crime and now age 27 (DOB: 1-30-1977); murder of white male age 57 in Beaumont (Jefferson County) on 12-25-1994; sentenced on 11-21-1996.
Dickens, Justin Wiley: White male; age 17 at crime and now age 27 (DOB: 7-28-1976); murder of white male age 50 in Randall County on 3-12-1994; sentenced on 5-17-1995.
Dixon, Anthony Tyrone: Black male; age 17 at crime and now age 27 (DOB: 11-7-1976); robbery and murder of white female age 34 in Houston (Harris County) on 5-15-1994; sentenced on 2-8-1995.
Guillen, Derek Jermaine: Black male; age 17 at crime and now age 23 (DOB: 10-20-1980); robbery, rape and murder of white female age 52 in Tempe on 3-26-1998; sentenced on 6-1-1999.
Horn, Patrick: Black male; age 17 at crime and now age 29; kidnaping and murder of male age 8 in Tyler on 10-13-1991; sentenced on 10-4-1999 [currently serving life sentence in federal prison in Atlanta, GA.].
Johnson, Eddie C.: Black male; age 17 at crime and now age 25 (DOB: 11-26-1978); robbery and murder of white male age 42 in Fort Worth on 3-6-1996; sentenced on 7-31-1997.
Jones, Anzel Keon: Black male; age 17 at crime and now age 26 (DOB: 2-4-1978); murder of white female age 49 in Grayson County on 5-2-1995; sentenced on 6-4-1996.
Little, Leo Gordon: White male; age 17 at crime and now age 23 (DOB: 7-14-1980); kidnaping, robbery and murder of Latin male age 22 in San Antonio on 1-22-1998; sentenced on 3-5-1999.
Lopez, Michael Anthony, Jr.: Latin male; age 17 at crime and now age 22 (DOB: 4-28-1981); murder of male age 25 (deputy constable) in Harris County on 9-29-1998; sentenced on 5-25-1999.
Monterrubio, Jose Ignacio: Latin male; age 17 at crime and now age 27 (DOB: 8-26-1976); rape and murder of Latin female age 16 in Brownsville (Cameron County) on 9-5-1993; sentenced on 8-25-1994.
Perez, Efrian: Latin male; age 17 at crime and now age 28 (DOB: 11-19-1975); rape and murder of white female age 14 and white female age 16 in Houston (Harris County) on 6-24-1993; sentenced on 9-22-1994. [Co-defendant of Raul Villareal]
Reeves, Whitney: White male; age 17 at crime and now age 22 (DOB: 8-21-1981); murders of white female age 14 and white male age 40 in Beaumont on 8-20-1999; sentenced on 9-8-2000.
Salinas, Jorge Alfredo: Latin male; age 17 at crime and now age 20 (DOB: 4-1-1984); robbery and murder of Latin male age 20 and Latin female age 21 months in Mission (Hidalgo County) on 7-28-2001; sentenced on 8-29-2002.
Solomon, Christopher Julian: Black male; age 17 at crime and now age 24 (DOB: 1-30-1980); robbery and murder of white male adult in Texarcana on 9-19-1997; sentenced on 6-4-1999.
Soriano, Oswaldo Regalado: Latin male; age 17 at crime and now age 28 (DOB: 6-26-1975); robbery and murder of white male age 59 in Amarillo on 11-17-1992; sentenced on 5-4-1994.
Springsteen, Robert Burns, IV: White male; age 17 at crime and now age 29 (DOB: 11-26-1974); robbery and murder of white female age 13 in Austin on 12-6-1991; sentenced on 6-1-2001.
Tran, Son Vu Khai: Asian-American male; age 17 at crime and now age 23 (DOB: 5-11-1980); murder of Latin male adult and Asian-American male age 20 in Houston on 10-25-1997; sentenced on 12-18-2000.
Villareal, Raul Omar: Latin male; age 17 at crime and now age 28 (DOB: 9-25-1975); rape and murder of white female age 14 and white female age 16 in Houston (Harris County) on 6-24-1993; sentenced on 9-22-1994. [Co-defendant of Efrian Perez]
Williams, Bruce Lee: Black male; age 17 at crime and now age 22 (DOB: 12-16-1981); car-jacking, rape and murder of Asian-American female age 24 in Dallas on 2-3-1999; sentenced on 12-10-1999.
Williams, Nanon McKewn: Black male; age 17 at crime and now age 29 (DOB: 8-2-1974); murder of white male age 19 in Harris County on 5-14-1992; sentenced on 9-22-1995.
Wilson, Geno Capoletti: Black male; age 17 at crime and now age 22 (DOB: 5-24-1981); robbery and murder of male age 19 in Houston on 12-2-1998; sentenced on 12-10-1999.
VIRGINIA (1)
(Last Execution of a Juvenile: January 19, 2000)
Johnson, Shermaine Ali: Black male; age 16 at crime and now age 26 (DOB: 12-30-1977); rape and murder of black female age 22 in Petersburg (Prince George County) on 7-10-1994; sentenced on 2-22-1998; reversed in 2001; resentenced to death on 10-28-2002.
The initial reaction is to get in an uproar. I think in the final analysis, juveniles will end up serving life behind bars , which is probably more of a punishment than to just end their lives quickly. They'll spend a lifetime with a lot of time to sit and think about what they had done to end up behind bars.
Oh they have the brains to do it all right.
In Alabama, two 17-year-olds, one 16-year-old, and one 19-year-old picked up a female hitchhiker, threw bottles at her, and kicked and stomped her for approximately 30 minutes until she died. They then sexually assaulted her lifeless body and, when they were finished, threw her body off a cliff. They later returned to the crime scene to mutilate her corpse.
Aw... they didn't know what they were doing the poor wee things.
OOOPS!You screwed up now!
Sensible thoughts are not allowed.
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