Posted on 02/26/2005 1:27:31 PM PST by srm913
So since I am not of the Christian faith, anything goes? Only Christians can see that Mr Keyes is correct in the way he has handled this situation?
I think that you are giving Mr Keyes way too much credit...and insulting me along the way. That's very un-Christian of you, it would seem to me.
See post 232.
I get the distinct impression that many so-called "Christian churches" would run John the Baptist and Jesus out of church in a New York cocaine minute for not being politically correct enough, and being so mean-spirited.
Ahhh, you have lost the ability to Judge Rightly... Why didn't you say so in the first place...
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Jesus repeatedly taught men to judge rightly, insisting they "judge with righteous judgment" (John 7:24) and He praised a man who "rightly judged" (Luke 7:43). Paul shamed the Corinthian Christians because there was no one among them willing to "judge the smallest matters" (1 Cor. 6:2). As the Apostle wrote, "He who is spiritual judges all things" for "we have the mind of Christ" (1Cor. 2:15-16).
The notion that judgment is wrong is a ludicrous one. Should child-molesters escape condemnation? Should rapists be free from criticism? Should society refrain from judging those arrested for murder? Should we call evil good? Or would that be a judgment too?
"Judge not" is the prayer of those who want to hide light under a basket. The cliché describes salt which has lost its flavor, which no longer seasons or preserves. Those seduced by this terrible lie are taken out of the game. As spectators on the sidelines, they only watch the spiritual battle. But they are in a comfort zone. Apathy is the craving. "Judge not" is the mantra for shirking responsibility
A lie paralyzed the Church. To abhor evil, someone must first judge evil. God instructs men against "hypocrisy" commanding them to "abhor what is evil" (Rom. 12:9). Thus, unable to judge, and unaccustomed to abhorrence, Christians en masse become hypocrites when they obey the Hypocrites Golden Rule. For "judge not" (Mat. 7:1-5) is simply a hypocrites application of do unto others as you would have them do unto you (Mat. 7:12). "For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged" (Mat. 7:2). Judge others as you would have them do unto you inverted is Judge not if you do not want to be judged. Therefore the hypocrite does not judge. As Jesus said, "Judge not you hypocrite" (Mat. 7:1, 5 KJV; Ezek. 16:52).
Christ kept this theme throughout His ministry. "Hypocrites," Jesus said, "why, even of yourselves, do you not judge what is right?" (Luke 12:56-57). Still, His own followers have mostly ignored the Lords harsh rebuke: "Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck out of your brothers eye" (Mat. 7:5). "Judge Not" is the Hypocritical Oath.
"Judge Not" is hypocrite haven. He who lives in a glass house should not throw stones. Such Christians, though, should relocate. Move into "the temple of the great God, which is being built with heavy stones" (Ezra 5:8).
Christians live in the "building" for which Christ is "the chief corner stone" (Eph. 2:20). And if that Stone falls on someone it "will grind him to powder" (Mat. 21:44; Luke 20:18; cf. Ex. 32:20). It is better to be judged by a Christian than crushed by Christ.
Loving them will.
However, the entire argument is predicated on the assumption that homosexuality is a perversion akin to pedophilia, or drug addiction or alcoholism. I don't accept that.
No one did. Who made you the authority on Christianity?
and I don't know what made you think you could come on here the day you signed in and takeover a thread, but you're wrong on both counts.
That's funny, I've not "taken over" anything. That would be pretty hard to do since I don't have access codes to do anything other than post along with many, many other posters including you.
Great post!
BTW, I simply don't understand the sentiment some have expressed that parents withholding money for good reason from their grown children is "unloving".
When I was going to college, I knew my parents were paying a large chunk of the cost; and I had a responsibility on my end as well: keep up my grades, do well, graduate, and make sure their money was put to good use. This was an unspoken agreement between us.
I knew if I flunked a semester or got into really messed up things, my parents would *not* continue funding my "education". I knew this was fair. It was their money.
But the thing is, there was simply enough respect and love between us--respect and love rooted in love for Christ--that there was never any real danger of such a trial occurring.
Which is not to say any of us were perfect. Just that we were on the same footing when it came to personal accountability.
!. There is no proverb which says "Spare the rod and spoil the child" That is a line from a play by Hudibras.
There are proverbs which recommend hitting sons. Rehoboam was the result.
2. There is not one line in the Bible which says you can hit daughters. Although you may sell them and the owner may beat them.
I'm offline for a bit.
I am afraid that most Christians forget that Christ was a man, not a woman... the shame of it... /end sarcasm...
Okay, add also completely immature. But don't worry, we see this a lot from Keyes bashers. You just happen to be newer than most.
What do you base your beliefs on?
".I suppose you wouldn't approve of excommunication from the Church of an unrepentant sinner too?"
Poor analogy, IMO.
If Homsexuality is a disease then Jesus would love those afflicted like he did the lepers.
If Homosexuality is a choice then Jesus would love those who sin like he did the woman at the well.
RE: "Hatred of homosexuals? I see a man the recognises God's law and loves his daughter enough to show her that he cares about how she lives in accordance to that law. Sometimes you have to do tough love."
That's probably because you've been brought up to hate, marginalize and repress homosexuals just as much as Mr. Keyes has. If I could, I'd bet you 1,000 dollars I can't afford that your parents hated homosexuals, your church preached hellfire against them, and your schoolyard friends used to rag on them. You think it's normal now for a man like Keyes to treat his own daughter like she was a dirty dog in the streets. She deserves to be ostracized because she's an evil, unrepentant sinner in your eyes. I don't blame you a bit for your indoctrination, but I'm eternally grateful to my parents that they raised me up with a respect for the individual above any petty sexual differences we might have.
RE: "I went through a stage of rebellion myself..."
The rest of your story is irrelevant to this discussion because Keyes daughter's sexuality isn't an act of "rebellion". What's your point?
You say you're a Christian but your language and attitude says different. It's your type of behavior that turn people off from true Christianity if in fact you really believe you're Christian.
You seem to have an underlying hostility for Keyes that has nothing to do with Christian interpretation of Scripture. God did not allow the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah to live in peace and harmony, and neither should we.
Two thoughts...
1). Alan Keyes hasn't thrown away his daughter, but has stopped funding her education and housing. His daughter has stated her understanding of his position and it appears that his only "condemnation" came in an unwillingness to fund his daughter's lifestyle.
2). How does one save souls if people aren't made aware that their sin requires salvation?
What a smug response.
Like I said, before you start spouting long New Testament based rants, it is wise to consider that the recipient of the rant may not be of the same faith as you.
Having said that, please don't presume to lecture me about "Judging Rightly". I want no part of any religion that teaches me to kick my child out of the house. Neither have I seen a single quote that indicates that I should.
"First thing the little darling does is go on CNN."
Sounds like some serious revenge. Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.
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