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FairTax.Org HR25
WWW.FAIRTAX.ORG ^ | Last Week | Thomas Leser

Posted on 02/13/2005 10:41:05 AM PST by nsmart

The FairTax is the non-partisan national sales tax proposal that would replace all federal income taxes. These include personal, estate, gift, self-employment, alternative minimum, capital gains, FICA, and corporate and death taxes.

(Excerpt) Read more at WWW.FAIRTAX.ORG ...


TOPICS: Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: consumptiontax; endincometax; fairtax; fairtaxorg; hr25; incometaxes; taxes; taxreform
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To: Iwo Jima
Then there would be a mad rush to stock up on everything before 12/31/06, with a depression-like slow down afterward.

A temporary blip. I'll agree that transition could get messy. On the other hand, people will have more cash in their pockets (no income or payroll taxes taken out, plus they are receiving the FCA "rebate"). Plus, American exports will be thriving due to removal of income and payroll tax costs in their production prices. So, while things could get a bit ugly during the transition, I don't think we'll have a depression of any sorts.

421 posted on 02/15/2005 11:49:25 AM PST by kevkrom (If people are free to do as they wish, they are almost certain not to do as Utopian planners wish)
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To: kevkrom

Under Section 2(a) 16, "used property" is property on which (A) tax has been paid or (B) held for other than for a business purpose on 12/31/06. I quite agree that there is no such thing as "new land" (other than volcanic lava), but that doesn't seem to be the definition. If land is held for other than business purposes on 12/31/06, then it would be exempt under subsection (B). But if land was held for a business purpose, then it would seem to be taxed the next time that it is sold.


422 posted on 02/15/2005 11:54:13 AM PST by Iwo Jima
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To: Your Nightmare; Iwo Jima; Taxman; Principled; EternalVigilance; rwrcpa1; phil_will1; kevkrom; ...

The new version of the bill specifically says "or," not "and." This is the only difference in this version of the bill.

Good of you to notice that, That change to the language, by the way, came out of discussion on FR back around last April 24th, as to the ambiguous interpretations of that element of the bill.

I and I am sure others are assuring that AFT and Linder's office is being updated as to problematic language and issues with the Fair Tax Act as these FR debates continue.

423 posted on 02/15/2005 11:54:16 AM PST by ancient_geezer (Don't reform it, Replace it!!)
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To: Iwo Jima
But if land was held for a business purpose, then it would seem to be taxed the next time that it is sold.

Business to business transactions aren't taxed. Only when sold for retail consumption.

424 posted on 02/15/2005 11:57:02 AM PST by Principled
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To: Iwo Jima

"The 30% tax of transactions for "new" or "untaxed" items (however that is defined). That's a tremendous incentive to try to structure transactions so that they seem to be outside the tax or to just flat out buy and sell on the black market without any regard to the tax. Those who try to play by the rules are at a serious disadvantage when the rules make no since, such as when you have made a used item more valuable than a new one."



OK then. Where does the black market seller get the products to sell? (starting the circle all over again)

Keep in mind that we already established:
1) The manufactures selling the product to liscensed businesses would be within the law, therfore outside of the black market.
2) The liscensed business buying the product would not risk that liscence to participate fully in the black market.
3) The rate of avoidence by each of these party would be approximately the same rate that we see today.

Just in case you missed this one in all the replys you have received.


425 posted on 02/15/2005 11:59:32 AM PST by CSM ("I just started shooting," said Gloria Doster, 56. "I was trying to blow his brains out ....")
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To: Iwo Jima; kevkrom

But if land was held for a business purpose, then it would seem to be taxed the next time that it is sold.

Where it is held in business for sale it qualifies for a transitional inventory credit to assure prior federal income and payroll taxes are not passed on to the customer in price.

 

H.R.25

Fair Tax Act of 2005 (Introduced in House)
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c109:H.R.25:


 

`SEC. 902. TRANSITION MATTERS.

`(a) Inventory-

`(1) QUALIFIED INVENTORY- Inventory held by a trade or business on the close of business on December 31, 2006, shall be qualified inventory if it is sold--

`(A) before December 31, 2008;

`(B) by a registered person; and

`(C) subject to the tax imposed by section 101.

`(2) COSTS- For purposes of this section, qualified inventory shall have the cost that it had for Federal income tax purposes for the trade or business as of December 31, 2006 (including any amounts capitalized by reason of section 263A of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 as in effect on December 31, 2006).

`(3) TRANSITIONAL INVENTORY CREDIT- The trade or business which held the qualified inventory on the close of business on December 31, 2006, shall be entitled to a transitional inventory credit equal to the cost of the qualified inventory (determined in accordance with paragraph (2)) times the rate of tax imposed by section 101.

`(4) TIMING OF CREDIT- The credit provided under paragraph (3) shall be allowed with respect to the month when the inventory is sold subject to the tax imposed by this subtitle. Said credit shall be reported as an intermediate and export sales credit and the person claiming said credit shall attach supporting schedules in the form that the Secretary may prescribe.

`(b) WORK-IN-PROCESS- For purposes of this section, inventory shall include work-in-process.

`(c) Qualified Inventory Held by Businesses Not Selling Said Qualified Inventory at Retail-

`(1) IN GENERAL- Qualified inventory held by businesses that sells said qualified inventory not subject to tax pursuant to section 102(a) shall be eligible for the transitional inventory credit only if that business (or a business that has successor rights pursuant to paragraph (2)) receives certification in a form satisfactory to the Secretary that the qualified inventory was subsequently sold subject to the tax imposed by this subtitle.

`(2) TRANSITIONAL INVENTORY CREDIT RIGHT MAY BE SOLD- The business entitled to the transitional inventory credit may sell the right to receive said transitional inventory credit to the purchaser of the qualified inventory that gave rise to the credit entitlement. Any purchaser of such qualified inventory (or property or services into which the qualified inventory has been incorporated) may sell the right to said transitional inventory credit to a subsequent purchaser of said qualified inventory (or property or services into which the qualified inventory has been incorporated).

 

Other Credits available for non business assets converted to business use etc. also are provided in `CHAPTER 2--CREDITS; REFUNDS, & CHAPTER 7 -- SEC. 705. MIXED USE PROPERTY.

426 posted on 02/15/2005 12:24:10 PM PST by ancient_geezer (Don't reform it, Replace it!!)
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To: Principled
O.K., so land held for business purpose (say, for residentital real estate developmont) prior to 12/31/06 and then sold to a homeowner for his residence would be subject to the NRST. And that would be true whether or not the deveoloper or the buyer is the one to build the home.

Correct?
427 posted on 02/15/2005 1:06:07 PM PST by Iwo Jima
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To: Always Right
You really have no argument unless you can dispute what this paragraph clearly says, but you can't.

Since I have a limited amount of time to spend posting to these threads, I took the time to read the posts following yours and can add nothing to what has already been posted by others.

428 posted on 02/15/2005 1:07:46 PM PST by Bigun (IRSsucks@getridof it.com)
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To: CSM
It is a hallmark of the marketplace (black or otherwise) that no person or group of people can possibly predict how resourceful it can be. That is why government does such a lousy job regulating markets. Whenever barriers to trade are thrown up, the inexorable human instinct is to get around them, not always is the most efficient or beneficial manner (like the illegal drug market).

Therefore, I cannot tell you exactly where the black market would get the products to sell. But the merchandise might be smuggled in from Mexico, Canada, Indian reservations, black market domestic sources, thefts or illicit transfers from "legitimate" sources, the possibilities are many.

Smaller more expensive items would obviously be more amenable to being obtained in "unorthodox" ways; the profit would make the risks more palatable. This is just the way that smuggling has happened for centuries. You can't outlaw it when the price differential is as great as is being discussed here.

That's the best that I can do, since I've never actually smuggled anything or dealt in pirated goods, nor do I intend to do so. I just know that others would, and the creative ways in which they would do so would surprise us both.

And the more successful and vigorous the black market is, the more pressure is brought to bear on "traditional" businesses to cut corners and hope that they don't get audited.
429 posted on 02/15/2005 1:25:28 PM PST by Iwo Jima
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To: Iwo Jima

O.K., so land held for business purpose (say, for residentital real estate developmont) prior to 12/31/06 and then sold to a homeowner for his residence would be subject to the NRST. And that would be true whether or not the deveoloper or the buyer is the one to build the home.

Correct?

With the developer holding that inventory receives a credit against remittng the NRST for the 23% of its input costs in building it. Thus the market is rebated for prior income/payroll taxes paid in building that home allowing after-NRST pricing to equalize with new homes built after the the implementation date.

See #426 above.

430 posted on 02/15/2005 1:27:31 PM PST by ancient_geezer (Don't reform it, Replace it!!)
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To: ancient_geezer

I give up. I guess the answer is "it depends."


431 posted on 02/15/2005 1:41:17 PM PST by Iwo Jima
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To: Iwo Jima

Yes there would be an NRST on new build homes held in inventory by developers across the implementation date. The developer selling the home in that case receives a credit against NRST received from the purchaser allowing maket adjustment of pricing to equalize with homes built after the implementation that have no payroll income taxes associated in their construction.

The the total cost(including NRST) to the buyer will be the same for both situations.


432 posted on 02/15/2005 1:53:54 PM PST by ancient_geezer (Don't reform it, Replace it!!)
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To: Principled; Bigun; ancient_geezer; kevkrom; Iwo Jima
Always Right:  "But anyone who is liable is responsible for remitting tax."

Principled:  "No - consumers are liable for the tax. Those who collect tax are the ones who remit to the state."

OK, here is the definitive answer.  Lets look through the entire bill to understand:

Point #1.  First the Fair Tax Act of 2005 Bill Clearly says the PURCHASER is LIABLE for the tax unless he has a Receipt, let's read:

`SEC. 101. IMPOSITION OF SALES TAX .

(d) Liability for Tax -

Do you disagree????  I should hope not.

Point #2.  Then we have Section 103 which relates only to Retailers.

`SEC. 103. RULES RELATING TO COLLECTION AND REMITTANCE OF TAX .

`(a) Liability for Collection and Remittance of the Tax - Except as provided otherwise by this section, any tax imposed by this subtitle shall be collected and remitted by the seller of taxable property or services (including financial intermediation services).

Section 103 is clearly talking about taxes where a receipt was given by a Retailer.  In this case, the Retailer is solely liable for the tax consistent with what Section 101 says.

Point #3.  Next we have Section 501 which covers BOTH cases, section 103 Purchases and Purchases where the Purchaser is liable and BOTH are required to REMIT the tax!

`SEC. 501. MONTHLY REPORTS AND PAYMENTS.

Paragrah A covers Section 103 taxes with a Purchaser Receipt.  Paragraph B cover other Purchases where there is no receipt.  This is where it makes the INDIVIDUAL PURCHASER, not the RETAILER, liable to pay and SUBMIT the sales tax.  Now are you going to agree with me that your bill clearly makes the Purchaser liable to remit the tax?  Now that we have established the FACT the a Purchaser is LIABLE unless he has a receipt and must REMIT the tax to the state, that means INDIVIDUALS are subject to all the same audits, requirements to produce records, liens, and penalities.  This is no different then the current IRS. So, KEEP your personal reciepts, you may need them! In the context of the ENTIRE bill, my understanding is correct.

 

433 posted on 02/15/2005 1:55:54 PM PST by Always Right
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To: Always Right
Point #1. First the Fair Tax Act of 2005 Bill Clearly says the PURCHASER is LIABLE for the tax unless he has a Receipt, let's read:

`SEC. 101. IMPOSITION OF SALES TAX .

(d) Liability for Tax -

* `(1) IN GENERAL- The person using or consuming taxable property or services in the United States is liable for the tax imposed by this section, except as provided in paragraph (2) of this subsection.
* `(2) EXCEPTION WHERE TAX PAID TO SELLER- A person using or consuming a taxable property or service in the United States is not liable for the tax imposed by this section if the person pays the tax to a person selling the taxable property or service and receives from such person a purchaser's receipt within the meaning of section 510.

Do you disagree???? I should hope not.

Actually, your interpretation is severly flawed. You selectively highlight certain text, but completely gloss over the fact that the two are not related. Clause 2 specifically says the consumer is no longer liable for the tax once it is paid to the seller. This makes the rest of your screed pointless.

434 posted on 02/15/2005 2:04:51 PM PST by kevkrom (If people are free to do as they wish, they are almost certain not to do as Utopian planners wish)
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To: kevkrom
Actually, your interpretation is severly flawed. You selectively highlight certain text, but completely gloss over the fact that the two are not related. Clause 2 specifically says the consumer is no longer liable for the tax once it is paid to the seller. This makes the rest of your screed pointless.

LOL. You are making no sense. I highlighted and explained every relevant point in percise detail. Individuals can be audited because they are liable and required to remit the tax. In order to show you are not liable for a tax you must produce a receipt if asked. Once you produce the receipt then you are no longer liable. But the NRST is not tax freedom for individuals. It is just as intrusive and vile as the current system.

435 posted on 02/15/2005 2:09:59 PM PST by Always Right
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To: kevkrom
Clause 2 specifically says the consumer is no longer liable for the tax once it is paid to the seller.

I think you left out the part and "receives from such person a purchaser's receipt within the meaning of section 510." Who is the one selectively reading.....

436 posted on 02/15/2005 2:14:56 PM PST by Always Right
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To: Always Right
LOL. You are making no sense. I highlighted and explained every relevant point in percise detail. Individuals can be audited because they are liable and required to remit the tax. In order to show you are not liable for a tax you must produce a receipt if asked. Once you produce the receipt then you are no longer liable. But the NRST is not tax freedom for individuals. It is just as intrusive and vile as the current system.

Keep your fanatsies. I read through your entire post, and it got less compelling as an argument the longer it went on. You are trying to cherry-pick lnaguage from different parts of the bill, while ignoring other relevant information, to create something that isn't there, just for the sake of decrying it.

You still haven't even come close to showing that the bill requires consumers to keep receipts or that they are subject to audit.

437 posted on 02/15/2005 2:15:47 PM PST by kevkrom (If people are free to do as they wish, they are almost certain not to do as Utopian planners wish)
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To: Always Right
I think you left out the part and "receives from such person a purchaser's receipt within the meaning of section 510." Who is the one selectively reading.....

I felt no need to re-iterate what you had already highlighted. Your assumptions about me are as flawed as your strawman NRST arguments.

438 posted on 02/15/2005 2:16:59 PM PST by kevkrom (If people are free to do as they wish, they are almost certain not to do as Utopian planners wish)
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To: kevkrom

You are just plain ignorant. Really ignorant. You guys make so many lies and then when the lies are exposed you stick your head in the sand and act ignorant. It is pitiful to watch.


439 posted on 02/15/2005 2:19:28 PM PST by Always Right
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To: Always Right

So, KEEP your personal reciepts, you may need them! In the context of the ENTIRE bill, my understanding is correct.

For large ticket items your absolutely right, it certainly behooves one to keep their receipts to protect their purchases from numerous possible problems, not to mention warranty as well as tax considerations if you wish to sell them, don't you already?


However, as far as sales tax collection is concerned there must be a probable cause for the state tax authorities to even get to the point of inquiring about prior payment of tax under the provisions of presumption of innocence and lawful behaviour in the Principles of Interpretation as pointed out in #416.

Just as today state sales tax agencies are not running around rifling peoples pockets and shoeboxes for receipts even for that car you bought or sold last year, you won't find them doing so under the NRST. That is unless you start acting like alot like a business, then probable cause crops up and yep you better be able to account for those items that aren't obviously out of someone's garage sale, or last years dinged up widgets in the flea market.

Engage in retail sales, expect to be open for questions as to sales license or proof you already paid tax on it, thats the way it is in my state anyway.

440 posted on 02/15/2005 2:20:08 PM PST by ancient_geezer (Don't reform it, Replace it!!)
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