Joseph Farah on "The Torture Question"

WND.com ^ | 01-11-05 | Farah, Joseph

[Theodore R.]

The 'torture' question

Posted: January 11, 2005 1:00 a.m. Eastern

© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com

Let me get a couple things out of the way before weighing in on the hottest issue in the U.S. Capitol today.

I don't like Alberto Gonzales. I think he's a sellout. I don't think he'll be a very good attorney general. I don't like his belief in a "living" Constitution. I think he's soft on abortion. He's not what this country needs in a top law enforcement officer. But he's what you would expect from the Bush administration.

I was never too upset about the pictures I saw of the Abu Ghraib prison scandal. I haven't lost a minute of sleep about the so-called abuses there. I've seen worse examples of "torture" in university fraternity hazing practices.

With that said, clearly I look at the Senate confirmation hearings on Gonzales' nomination a little differently than most Republicans and most Democrats.

While I don't care too much about the fate of the Gonzales nomination, there is a bigger issue at stake in this public exhibition – whether we as a nation have the resolve and intestinal fortitude to win the global war against the Islamic terrorists who attacked us Sept. 11, 2001, and who are planning future and more deadly attacks against as right now.

To win this war, it's going to be necessary to get our hands dirty. It is going to require extreme sacrifice and gut-checking commitment. We're going to have to do things in this war that you don't do at Georgetown cocktail parties. We're going to have to give our troops and our intelligence agents tools to work with and we're going to have to back them when they make tough calls in the name of saving lives.

Here's what I can tell you with certainty as someone with a few contacts on the front lines of this war: Since the Abu Ghraib scandal – that tempest in a teapot – U.S. interrogators have gotten next to nothing out of prisoners in Iraq.

Why?

Because those prisoners, many of them hardened terrorists with information about future attacks on our troops, maybe even on U.S. civilians, know the interrogators are playing with one hand tied behind their back. The rules on grilling have gotten much tougher. We have to be nice to the prisoners now – even if it means getting nothing out of them and losing more American lives as a result.

Now, I don't know about you, but I think that's wrong. I think that's stupid. I think that kind of attitude virtually ensures this war will be longer and bloodier than any of us wish.

Do you believe in torture?

Most people would say no.

But what is torture? Interrogators are trained to use tough methods to extract information, but not to cross certain lines. Now those lines are increasingly moving and getting blurrier all the time because of criticism from arm-chair generals like Teddy Kennedy.

Before you answer the question as to whether you believe in torture under any circumstances, I urge you to rent the movie "Man on Fire," directed by Tony Scott and starring Denzel Washington. This is not a movie about war, but it might as well be. A little girl is kidnapped, and her bodyguard has to resort to some unusual tactics to find out who is responsible. See it and tell me if the extreme actions of this bodyguard are not morally justifiable.

There's another movie you might want to see along these lines – "Rules of Engagement," starring Tommy Lee Jones and Samuel L. Jackson. A Vietnam platoon commander has to make some tough calls when his friend's platoon is ambushed. It even involves killing an enemy prisoner in cold blood.

It's easy to condemn these kinds of actions as we sit back in our easy chairs here in the United States. But it is a mistake to tie the hands of the men we send to war to do our dirty work.

If we don't have the stomach for war, we have no business sending troops to fight them. If we don't intend to do everything necessary to win the war, we should never start one in the first place. If we don't back our troops with consistent support and the tools they need to minimize death, we might as well sue for peace right now. If we don't stop micromanaging this war from Washington, we will indeed find ourselves in another Vietnam.

[BufordP]

Yep.

Expert Testimony: Torture Works

[shubi]

"If we don't back our troops with consistent support and the tools they need to minimize death, we might as well sue for peace right now. If we don't stop micromanaging this war from Washington, we will indeed find ourselves in another Vietnam."

I hate the Vietnam comparison, but other than that we do need to become ruthless. We can not play "nicey" with terrorists.

If we wanted to, we could shoot them summarily as spies for being out of uniform.

[TomGuy]

Gonzales said, during his testimony: ...they might be undocumented aliens, but otherwise lawful citizens...

--from AG Nominee Gonzales on Illegal Immigration (Confirmation Hearing Excerpts)

So, some lawbreakers are more lawful than other lawbreakers? Is this how the new AG intends to interpret all laws?

[opus86]

War is an ugly business. If the leadership on the ground in Iraq thinks we can get information by roughing up a few thugs, I say have at it. We cannot fight this war half-heartedly.

[wolfpat]

If we wanted to, we could shoot them summarily as spies for being out of uniform.

I agree. I also like what a friend of mine said he did in Vietnam. They would take two of the enemy up in a helicopter. They'd ask one a question. If he refused to answer, they'd throw him out. The other one would usually start singing like a bird.

[Phatnbald]

Are we really drawing moral conclusions from Hollywood movies? Torture is a tool of barbarians. Overwhelming power will crush our foes, and if we have to bleed a little more to fight clean, thats what we need to do.

The one in a million situation with the ticking time bomb is not something that anyone need ever hear of.

When our soliders are being tortured, when other governments around the world feel free to torture, when our own internal law-enforcement feels free to torture, its not going to seem like such a grand idea to fight terrorists with the tools of despots and tyrants. The Gestapo tortured- the FBI never had too.

When we start thinking that any means justify our ends, human dignity goes out the window, and we start to power our enemies with rightousness and implacable hate.

We do not want to reap what torture sews, and Joseph Farah should be ashamed of his weakness and shortsightedness.

[Smartaleck]

"So, some lawbreakers are more lawful than other lawbreakers?"

Is that not true?

[txroadhawg]

I agree. We have to have higher standards then the rest of the world because we are the sole superpower.
As for getting required information, we need to turn the prison camps over to the Iraqs, they have more at stake and have a long history of intimadation that works in their favor. Prisoners held by the US can just be transfered back to their home countrys for local "interviews" with the US on the other side of the mirror.

[Phatnbald]

Thanks- I don't think we share the popular view.

I'm waiting to hear if it's OK to torture "terrorist's" children in front of them, or maybe their kinfolk etc.

After all, its much easier just to throw them from a helicopter, but think of the valuable information we would miss out on.

[Don Simmons]

"To win this war, it's going to be necessary to get our hands dirty."


Without getting too deep in the weeds, I'll say that my job completely revolves around this war -- all the way down to the specifics of the most minute detail of information and the working of the "minds" of these scum. I've "been there"...to the places in question when the torture issue comes up - you figure out the rest. What I will say may shock some, but I assure you it's the truth.

There is only one way we can ever "win" this war we're waging - which is both a war for the preservation of humanity as we know it...and a "Holy War" in every sense of those words.

The only way to win this outright is not by merely getting our hands dirty vis-a-vis "torture" -- we are going to have to completely eradicate the very seeds of our adversaries' existence. If that sounds like the wholesale destruction of every man, woman, and child who are subject to affiliation with Islam and its principles of evil - so be it....you're catching on quite well.

Sounds ugly - and it'll certainly not be accepted very well. However, when you sweep aside all the white-washed rhetoric about Islam being a religion of "peace" and the notion that there are large segments of the Muslim population who are actually peace-loving people of "God" - and finally get down to the reality of this evil scourge upon our Earth, the answer does become quite clear.

The Koranic verses spell out their mandate quite clearly - all who do not subscribe to Allah and Islam are infidels - and all Muslims should "go forth and slay" the infidels.

There is NO changing their mindsets - none. I have seen, heard, and felt - first hand - the coldness and depth of their hatred for all we stand for as a Nation of peace-loving Americans. My constitution is strong and my will is unshakable -- and it gave me chills once it actually set in.

Anyone who seriously believes these demons are not trying to infest every corner of the Earth with the eventual goal of an Islamic world is fooling himself. That is a fact, friends.

Like creeping socialism, their goal can't be met with blatant and up-front clarity and speed. It takes time...patience. Step one is getting large segments of the population to accept it as "just another religion".

Just another religion, indeed. Europe is well on its way....

How often do we hear of the Muslim outcry any time they are publically portrayed negatively?

Every single time!

How silent were those same people when their missionaries were cutting the throats of our people "In the name of Allah, the merciful, the benevolent"?

You could have heard a pin drop.

Any questions?

[Lucky Dog]

It's easy to condemn these kinds of actions as we sit back in our easy chairs here in the United States.

A quote comes to mind...

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. --- John Stuart Mill

[Alberta's Child]

If we don't have the stomach for war, we have no business sending troops to fight them.

I agree 100% with this statement, but the rest of the article is over the top. Every argument Farah presents in favor of torture could also be applied to our own criminal justice system, but it is not. At a bare minimum, a nation like ours should base its conduct on uniform moral standards that apply not only to our own criminals but also in situations where U.S. personnel operating under our flag are operating in foreign countries.

[Alberta's Child]

That's a great quote by John Stuart Mill, but I would make the case that it doesn't apply to any "war" the U.S. has fought since 1945 (including this one). One of the great ironies of this country is that the "decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war" is so prevalent even among people who are such strong advocates for this war.

[Spirited]

I will accept your evaluations after you swear to me that you have a child or grandchild on the ground in the war zone and will see that they stay there until the end.

Easy words come cheap.

[JCISLORD]

Your attitude is typical of someone who has never lost a loved one or friend in war. I had relatives and friends who fought and died in Vietnam, so personal loss is no stranger to my family. I also have nine grandsons who may one day join one of the Armed Forces. If terrorist must be tortured to save American lives, I say torture the fanatics. These terrorist hate us. They will do anything to destroy us, including killing citizens here in America. Terrorist do not see Americans as human, so they continue with the torture and be-headings with no fear of retribution. Are we to sit back and just slap them on the wrist after they have blown-up a vehicle loaded with American soldiers? I say that any torture short of death should be used if would save soldiers lives.

[shubi]

I am a Nam (Navy destroyer) vet. I think that may be a "urban" legend.

[Phatnbald]

I utterly reject the argument that I have to have family in the war zone to have a moral say in its execution. If it would please some of the people on this site to know I lost a dear, dear friend on September 11, thats the sad way it is. And it is sad- I guess human beings are too limited in imagination to project themselves in such a way.

Why not have the families of murder victims pull the switch? Why not only accept votes on military spending from people who have family in the military ?

Wait a moment- the PRESIDENT does not have any family in the war zone- I guess he is in no position to make judgement either.

All my attitude is typical of is a man who can make a moral distinction between a hard clean fight and a dirty, lazy fight. Waving personal loss around is just moral exhibitionism, and I wont be doing it.

[BufordP]

War - criminal justice system? Apples and oranges. Shall we have a judge and jury standing by giving the nod to the soldiers for every shot fired on the battlefield? You cannot compare the two. Try a different more relevant argument.

[BufordP]

The MAIN purpose of the Geneva Convention is SELF-protection. Self protection in the sense that if you treat their (signators of the Convention) prisoners humanely, you'll have a reasonable expectation that your prisoners will be treated equally. It isn't about getting emotional and claiming who resides on a higher moral plane. It's about trying to create an environment to provide "some" assurances to your own forces .

When the enemy starts cutting off heads and killing innocent civilians - all bets are off. Treating the enemy humanely no longer serves THAT purpose.