GOP, You Are Warned

AEI ^ | 29 dec 04 | David Frum

[Sam the Sham]

Actually, people who illegally cross the borders are criminals.

People who hire them with a nod and a wink are criminals, too.

[AndyJackson]

Do you acknowledge that illegal aliens violate laws?

We are all sinners. It is a sad state of affairs, but in our over-regulated environment we (including you)all break laws all of the time.

[Fatalis]

Hillary or another creditable Democrat running on immigration, federal spending and jobs would wipe the floor with a GOP candidate forced to defend the Bush administrations record on these issues.

Something like a Clinton-Richardson ticket could talk tough on illegals while neutralizing anti-Hispanic and anti-immigrant charges.

[dasein64]

IMO, voter fraud is parallel with immigration as a threat to GOP victory next time around. Both issues need to be addressed as soon as possible. For one thing, photo ID would screen out illegals. Removing incentives for illegal immigrants would be the first step to take and would relieve states of the burden of supporting another class of welfare recipients. A lot to be done but the activist courts will fight reform all the way and Pres Bush cannot just wave a wand and make it happen. He must, however, show support for the citizens of this country who are concerned and outraged at the current run away situation. They are Pres Bush's obligation, and he should not be looking at reform from the point of view of foreign countries.

[Sam the Sham]

Apparently you think it is racist and "anti-Mexican" to insist that laws be enforced. There is nothing the least bit conservative about that. Apparently you are willing to destroy the quality of life in our border states to facilitate access to cheap labor. There is nothing the least bit conservative about that.

Your hysterics are reminiscent of a 60's knee-jerk liberal insisting that people worried about crime in the streets were "racist". In your fulmination about California social spending you have your own version of "root causes".

[Dane]

Something like a Clinton-Richardson ticket could talk tough on illegals while neutralizing anti-Hispanic and anti-immigrant charges.

And if you believe that crock, there is no hope for you, IMO.

Fortunately there are some on FR ready to break that crock of hillary, richardson, MSM, of you know what.

[Fatalis]

Read what I wrote again. You missed the point. The mistake she ALREADY HAS MADE is the fact that she has already aligned herself with Marxists.

What's the date of Hillary Clinton's last positive citation of Saul Alinsky?

If it's not post-1992, the issue will not surface as a factor in 2008 .

[BlackElk]

Yours is an excellent post as well. I expected Sam Francis whose day job is editing a newspaper for the "Conservative Citizens' Council" (nee White Citizens' Council). Buchanan really ought to have known better. Worse yet, Buchanan finds himself in ideological league with the lavender legend of limpwrist/pantywaist foreign policy: Justin Raimondo of antiwar.com.

You are still a conservative. So am I. I am not changing and I hope you don't either.

[Sam the Sham]

A ticket like that would solidify her in the Southwest. She only needs one Southwest state.

Bush got 11% of the black vote in Ohio because of gay marriage. Kerry lost because he did surprisingly poorly with black Ohio voters. Hillary will not have that problem.

[jpsb]

"If the Democrats forget about cultural liberalism and get back"

Yup that is the Democrats weak spots, but money beats culture almost every time. And remember Bill Clinton tried to form a "new democrat" party out of the old liberal party. He tried to move his party to right, Hillary is doing the same. If the democrats can rid themselves of more obscene culture warriors like Micheal Moore, Homosexuals and such and present itself as a "working mans" party and paint the GOP as the party of Wall Street not Main Street, then the GOP will be removed from power in a Tsunami of party realignment more powerful then the realignment to the Contract with America GOP in 94. The GOP needs t remember just who brought them the dance.

Unfortunately I do not see that happening under Bush. Bush is a good man, just like his father, but totally out of touch with the country.

[txdoda]

There's more to it than that.

Yes, I understand that, however, (1)until we secure the borders, (2) Remove some of the *incentives* to be here illegal, we will always have some illegal employers & illegals breaking in to work.

[Fatalis]

And if you believe that crock, there is no hope for you, IMO.

Fortunately there are some on FR ready to break that crock of hillary, richardson, MSM, of you know what.

I have a hard time understanding your misdirection. If you've inferred that I would vote for such a ticket, you're mistaken. I'm suggesting that such a ticket would be formidable. This is a similar observation to the warning that David Frum has issued with his article at the top of the thread.

Attempts #2 and #7, respectively:

Do you acknowledge that illegal aliens violate laws?

Is it good to reward lawbreakers at the expense of those who obey the laws?

[Southack]

"Yet Bush is already signaling that he intends to revive the amnesty/guestworker immigration plan..."

David Frum gets it all wrong from the get go. It isn't an amnesty plan. Amnesty was what President Reagan gave to over 1 million illegal aliens in the 1980's (and you see how much that "hurt" his popularity).

President Bush's plan is a plea bargain. Confusing a plea bargain with an amnesty is a sign of an uneducated mind (or a mind that prefers propaganda to honest debate).

Illegals, under Bush's plan, have to register with the federal government, they have to register their family, and they have to register their employer. Then they have to pay a fine. Moreover, they aren't eligible for citizenship under Bush's plan (they would have to apply under existing legal programs for that, hardly something to fault Bush for)...and they have to self-deport themselves after three years if they want to renew their blue card work permit.

So what do we legal American citizens get? We get 8 million currently anonymous illegals to suddenly come in from the cold to REGISTER with our federal government. Instead of having to task massive law enforcement resources to track down anonymous criminals, suddenly our government knows where 8 million illegals live and work, specifically.

What else do we get? By registering their employers, we suddenly get a way to enforce our minimum wage laws...and we remove a wage incentive for hiring an illegal over an American willing to work for Minimum Wage (e.g. a teenager).

That's a far cry from President Reagan's amnesty.

President Bush's plan is good. It's being deliberately mischaracterized, however.

Well, here's a good rule of thumb: if your opponent has to lie or mischaracterize in order to make a point, then 9 times out of 10 your opponent is on the losing and immoral side of an issue.

In this case, why do opponents of President Bush's plan have to mischaracterize it as being an "amnesty?" Can they not make their logical arguments against that plan based strictly upon the merits (or lack thereof) to that plan? Why must they call what is clearly a plea bargain an "amnesty?" Such dishonesty weakens their arguments against this plan.

[Fatalis]

Yes, I understand that, however, (1)until we secure the borders, (2) Remove some of the *incentives* to be here illegal, we will always have some illegal employers & illegals breaking in to work.

Even if we get #1 and #2, we'll still have some illegals, but fewer. Laws rarely eliminate every aspect of a problem, but when well written and well enforced they can alleviate them greatly.

[txdoda]

Legal immigrants resent the way illegal Mexicans and Central Americans are catered to. How they get to jump to the head of the line.

They sure do, I've always thought they should file lawsuits.

(and have heard rumors they might if illegals receive yet another *line cut*)

[Dane]

A ticket like that would solidify her in the Southwest. She only needs one Southwest state

Oh yeah, hillary's non-changing stance on gun control or abortion, tax increases(yes richardson did not increase taxes but he is the VP candidate, not the Prez. candidate), will just be erased from voters minds.

There are many weaknesses to a hillary candidacy, yet you and your cadre on FR wish to focus only on her perceived MSM strengths.

That makes one say, hmmmm.

[Torie]

they have to self-deport themselves after three years if they want to renew their blue card work permit.

How does that work exactly? What are the details? You know, it would be a good idea if somebody found a link to the bullet point details of the Bush proposal, so that we can refer to it.

[Dane]

If you've inferred that I would vote for such a ticket, you're mistaken. I'm suggesting that such a ticket would be formidable. This is a similar observation to the warning that David Frum has issued with his article at the top of the thread.

See reply #236 of this thread.

[AndyJackson]

Actually, people who illegally cross the borders are criminals.

It is a minor point, but they are not ipso facto criminals. To be a criminal you have to violate the criminal code -i.e. rape, murder, armed robbery, that sort of thing. You are not a criminal if you get a speeding ticket, or, if you build a fence to close to the property line and without a city permit - no matter how unlawful these things otherwise are.

[jpsb]

"Illegals, under Bush's plan, have to register with the federal government, they have to register their family, and they have to register their employer. Then they have to pay a fine. Moreover, they aren't eligible for citizenship under Bush's plan (they would have to apply under existing legal programs for that, hardly something to fault Bush for)...and they have to self-deport themselves after three years if they want to renew their blue card work permit."

Actually that does not sound to bad, but I have not seen any details yet.

We will not solve this problem without giving Law Enforcement the tools it needs to convict employers, lacks of LE tools is what doomed Reagan 86 bill. We will need either forgery prove national ID card or a national database to enforce any crack down on employers. I am not a big fan of either, but I can't see any other solution.