N.Y. Muslim group held at border

NY Daily News ^ | 12/30/2004 | LESLIE CASIMIR

[RS]

"Because they had intelligence that they might try to smuggle people in (a reason!)"

There was NO report that says they might try to smuggle people - there was supposedly a report that people who attended that convention would be coming through. Which, if it actually happened and was not part of the CYA, could very well have been a heads-up to NOT get upset if you see a bunch of arabic-looking folks... they are to be expected.

"If everyone shows documents, why did they complain that they had to show documents?"

There was NO reported complaining about showing documents - the complaining was about pics and prints, and a supposed "random" inspection consisting of only people who had attended that convention.

[ariamne]

Oh, I make no bones about my antipathy toward the "religion of peace". I didn't come to this table with an inate hatred of any one religion. Every islamic terrorist atrocity brought me closer to it. The inability of muslim leaders or the faithful to simply condemn an islamic terrorist atrocity, just condemn it, without a qualification, or without blaming a) US policy b) Israelis c) the victims themselves, brought the chair of religious mistrust to the table. I merely sat in it.

[ariamne]

"you people"?

And which people might that be? Are you referring to my Jewish heritage? Yes, my people may know a little bit about Nazi concentration camps.

[Gondring]

IMHO this is not even close to a valid argument.

Awww, not even close? I thought I was in the same county, at least! ;-)

You can't compare a "few" whacked out, so called Christians, who claim to do the will of God by killing those that murder babies, to a cult that orders their followers to kill all infidels.

And I've heard Muslims say the same about the Qutb followers. Obviously, there are a "few" whacked out Christians who don't follow what a God would truly want. What makes them act that way, though? Interpretation.

Obviously, though Islam is technically against "aggression" (e.g., "Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors."), the imams use interpretation to allow what we (and any sane outside observer) see as pre-emptive attacks on us. I should give credit to the other poster (Fred Nerks? FreeReign? Shoot, can't find it!) who pointed this out earlier. Although we can't stop them from the phony justifications, we can at least force them to stretch quite a bit, not make it easy on them.

Muslims justify their terrorism because it is commanded of them.

And so do Christian terrorists. My point is not that they are the same--except from their warped point of view. And what makes them act? Their warped point of view, not our view! In fact, you use the words "...in their eyes...", which is exactly on target.

So, what's the logical conclusion? Let's look at the incitement by the imams, for one. That's why I asked Fred Nerks about the case he mentioned. While I am extremely leery of interfering in a religious teachings, if there are clear cases of incitement or selective interpretation that is inciting violence, then we have laws for that.

Rewmember that this country's law is based on actions, not desires. It's legal to want to want something you can't have, as long as you don't try to take it illegally. It's legal to want to spread Islam, as long as they don't try to force it. If it were any other way, I'm sure a good chunk of FR could be arrested today for kidnapping ... ;-)

[Gondring]

I think they'd suggest sending Muslims to Antarctica, in August, while wearing shorts and flip-flops.

You credit them with knowing what season it would be in Antarctica in August. I'm not sure they stop and think that long. ;-)

BTW, "them" refers to bigots...so anyone looking to take offense, realize you're admitting you're in that category. ;-)

[af_vet_1981]

arabs are a close second

Christian Arabs can be jewels.

[af_vet_1981]

That's the prevalent way of these Islamonazi-defenders. I thinks it's all part of the self-loathing, anti-American disorder.

While that may be true, some of them may simply have already submitted and joined Islam.

[inquest]

I agree wholeheartedly, I was led down this path by the contrarian contingent, the "Sayers of the Law"

Uh, not quite. You brought up their alleged views on slavery out of the clear blue. No one "led" you to do it. Do learn to take responsibility for what you say.

This dead horse is beaten flat.

No, but your argument has been.

[jan in Colorado]

LOL Gondring,

Good use of humor. The Ann Coulter picture was a nice touch. You weren't implying that there are some FReepers here who would attempt to kidnap....never mind, I won't go there.

>>>>And I've heard Muslims say the same about the Qutb followers.<<<<<<
Interesting that you brought Sayyid Qutb up since he was arrested and executed for attempting to overthrow the government.

What would happen to someone attempting to do that here in this Country? CAIR and the ACLU would be all over it and they'd probably win a huge settlement in a law suit.


I have finally discovered, through your last response, why, no matter how long we argue about this, we will NEVER agree. Our view of what the Koran teaches is drastically different.

You quote "Allah loveth not aggressors"

Well, I have a few quotes of my own from the Koran:

4:101 "... For the Unbelievers are unto you open enemies."

[5.51] O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

8:39 “Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.”

9:5 "... fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war) ..."

47:4 "Therefore, when ye meet the unbelievers, smite at their necks, at length when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them) ... but if it had been God's will, he could certainly have exacted retribution from them (himself), but (he lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the way of God, he will never let their deeds be lost."


I could go on but I think you get the point. As long as we disagree with their intent, there is no way we can ever agree on a solution.

Step back a minute and look at terrorism through out the world. Who is behind almost all of it?


You ask me why some "whacked out" Christians don't follow God's teachings and commit heinous acts? So I guess with my background in criminology and deviant behavior, I'm suppose to be able to answer that? I can give you my opinion.

There are a lot of "crazy" people out there. Just because someone says they are a Christian, doesn't make it so. There are criminals who commit repulsive acts saying they were told by God to do it. That doesn't mean it's true.
I can't tell you why people commit crime. There are volumes of books written about that. I don't think it's relevant to this discussion.

You mention Christain terrorists. What are you referring to? The abortion bombings? I wouldn't classify them as Christain terrorists since they aren't following the teachings of the Bible. They are criminals. BTW, how many of these so called Christain terrorists have struck through out the world in an organized campaign?

I really don't think you can justify comparing the two, as there is no comparison.

I would almost guarantee you, if there were a group of people, claiming to be Christians, bombing baby killing clinics in the name of God, the majority on FR as well as Christians throughout the world, would be the FIRST to condemn such action. As Christains we are to change people's hearts and minds, not kill those who are blind to the truth.

Do you see any such outrage from the members of the Islamic followers? If I recall, I saw a lot more rejoicing in the streets on 9/11 and heard very little condemnation of those terrorist acts from Muslims.


>>>>It's legal to want to spread Islam, as long as they don't try to force it.<<<<<<

It appears to me, they do intend to force it. Are Muslims allowed to reject Islam and not fear for their life? Is there free choice for them? When their numbers get larger here, will there be free choice for us?

If the intent of Islam is to overthrow our government and impose Islamic Law, why IS it legal to spread it here?


I want to end here with saying I appreciate you keeping this to a civil debate and difference of opinion, rather than the yelling and name calling that seems to be hijacking this thread.

[RS]

"I could go on but I think you get the point."

Just wondering where you found your translations ?

http://www.submission.org/ has some of them worded different, and without taking them out of context, some make sense even to this heathen.

for example -

[4:101] When you travel, during war, you commit no error by shortening your Contact Prayers (Salat), if you fear that the disbelievers may attack you. Surely, the disbelievers are your ardent enemies.


Looks to me like this is saying that if you happen to be in a war with disbelievers, you can shorten your prayer time as they will not respect your religion and attack at that time. Makes a lot of military sense to me no matter what religion you happen to be ...


Of course it appears that the fanatics have used a different interpretation to achive the results they want - a common occurance with ancient religious texts.

[jan in Colorado]

Why would you refer to yourself as a heathen?

Did I in any way imply that someone who believes differently than me is a heathen?

I certainly did not.

The translations I used were actually sent to me about a month ago by a fellow FReeper.

I guess that is one of the difficulties in dealing with this subject. If there isn't any one true translation that everyone agrees with, it does make it difficult to find the Truth. That is what I am after here. Nothing more.

I am not here to point fingers or make false accusations. If you have evidence that Islam is not wanting to dominate the world or that their intent is not to wipe out all infidels, then I would welcome that evidence.

I would appreciate a civil discourse rather than the name calling and mudslinging that seems so rampant here.

I don't think anything is achieved by using those methods.

[RS]

"Why would you refer to yourself as a heathen?"

No reflection on anything you said - I was just heading off those who would jump in calling me an Islamoappologizer or some such thing.


"If there isn't any one true translation that everyone agrees with, it does make it difficult to find the Truth. That is what I am after here."

You found it - the "Truth" of what is says is whatever the reader wants it to be.

I don't know anything about the "truth" of the site I linked - it just popped up using google, but the Islamo-phobics here seem to prefer the same translations that the Fanatic Imans do.


"If you have evidence that Islam is not wanting to dominate the world or that their intent is not to wipe out all infidels, then I would welcome that evidence."

If Islam is defined by fanatics like UBL, then they DO want to kill or convert everyone - kind of like the Crusades. I guess you could say at that time the Christians wanted to kill or convert everyone also. Maybe it's some sort of "phase" that religions have to grow out of - they are still stuck in the 1400's.


What we need to do is kill the ones that interpret it into killing us, and ignore the ones that interpret it as ignoring us.

Anyone who truely believe that Islam wants to kill everyone else and won't stop until we are all dead, would be in favor of simply marching them all into the gas chambers, unless someone has a better idea.

Leviticus 26:8 Five of you will chase a hundred, and a hundred of you will chase ten thousand, and your enemies will fall by the sword before you.

By some interpretations this could be us in Iraq, so I guess we have Gods OK to kill them all...

[Gondring]

I would appreciate a civil discourse rather than the name calling and mudslinging that seems so rampant here.

And as I understand it, you are not implying that RS's reply or my posting was name calling or mudslinging, you're just commenting in general, right?

[jan in Colorado]

Correct Gondring,

I would say both replies were very civil and informative. :0)

[Nesher]

"Hits a little too close to home, eh?"

You can't compare Christians who bomb abortion clinics to the Muslim terrorists.

Firstly, the delusional whackos who bomb clinics dont want to kill all the non-Christians in the world, or even all the people who support abortion.
The muslim terrorists want to kill ALL the non-Muslims, even people who stand up for them.
If the Muslims ever conquered Israel, they would kill Shimon Peres just as quickly as they would kill Netanyahu or Limor Livnat or another right-winger.

The abortion clinic bombers want to kill just the people they perceive as murderers, NOT everyone who is not like them.

The Muslim terrorists want to kill everyone. They like killing innocent people who never did anything.

The Muslims are told in the Koran to kill non-Muslims. I think it is 5:51 Sura in the Quran that says "lie in wait and ambush the infidels and kill them. Hit them wherever you find them."
By hit they mean kill.
There is nowhere in the Bible that says to kill abortion doctors. The clinic bombers are acting on their own morals, not God's Word.

But the Muslims are doing exactly what their religion tells them to.

In the Quran it says that all Muslims should "take up the sword against the infidels."

Not all Muslims do. Some Christians dont go to church every week.

The point is, their religion tells them to kill us (the infidels.)

Some of them just dont.

Not all Muslims are our enemy. The peace loving ones who do not want to impose their values and culture on us can be our allies.

But the religion of Islam IS our enemy.

[Gondring]

And you even forgave my comma splice. :-)

[jan in Colorado]

RS,

I still am not sure if you consider yourself a heathen or not, but I found it entertaining that a heathen would quote the Bible. LOL

I disagree that God has given His OK to kill them all.

Personally, I think He would like to see them all converted to Christianity....kind of what Ann Coulter said.
But hey, that's just my opinion. I don't claim to know what God's intentions are. I don't believe the Old Testament has anything to do with what is going on now. All those prophecy's have been fulfilled and Christians are no longer under the "Old" law. But that also is a different subject, isn't it?

The Crusades did not represent Christianity, and they certainly didn't represent the teachings of Christ.

>>>>>You found it - the "Truth" of what is says is whatever the reader wants it to be.<<<<<


I "want" it to be a Peace Loving religion. That doesn't make it so.

>>>>>What we need to do is kill the ones that interpret it into killing us, and ignore the ones that interpret it as ignoring us.<<<<<<

As Gondring has so often pointed out, you can't arrest or kill someone because of what they "think" I would rephrase that to brainwashing as I believe it is a cult and not a religion.

I don't believe anyone wants to march them into gas chambers. In the past, people that came to America assimilated into this culture, not the other way around. I don't understand why they want to be here if we are such pagans.

[Gondring]

And you think the Communist Party of the USSR didn't want to destroy us unless we converted, and they had nukes. We've faced enemies before, and being strongly united against them is best, not attacking our own freedoms.

and hey, what about this...

Exodus 22:20--"He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed."

Whoa...certainly seems rather tolerant of other religions.

or Deuteronomy 7:16: "And thou shalt consume all the people which the LORD thy God shall deliver thee; thine eye shall have no pity upon them : neither shalt thou serve their gods; for that will be a snare unto thee."

IF that were in the Koran, people would be hopping up and down saying it was a call to unmercifully kill unbelievers.

After all, it continues on, and we get:

7:22 And the LORD thy God will put out those nations before thee by little and little: thou mayest not consume them at once, lest the beasts of the field increase upon thee.
7:23 But the LORD thy God shall deliver them unto thee, and shall destroy them with a mighty destruction, until they be destroyed.
7:24 And he shall deliver their kings into thine hand, and thou shalt destroy their name from under heaven: there shall no man be able to stand before thee, until thou have destroyed them.

Oh what fun, God will set them up like a pigeon shoot, releasing them one at a time for us to wipe out.

Oh, and if anyone works at all on the Sabbath, put him to death. After all, the Bible commands it, doesn't it?

Look at Deuteronomy 17, and its points about killing those who would leave the faith, and then complain about the way Muslims can't leave their faith.

Bottom line is that any text can be twisted, and dueling texts aren't the point.

[Eva]

Do you really believe that the woman was asked about her underwire bra? My guess is that these people were instructed to raise questions at the border to cause the fuss.

[weenie]

My guess is that these people were instructed to raise questions at the border to cause the fuss.

Everything points to it, doesn't it...They are just following the plan.