Posted on 12/22/2004 7:05:54 AM PST by Graybeard58
With all the accolades heaped on Robert Ziegler last night, it looked at times like his bosses were giving him a commendation rather than firing him.
Robert Ziegler, right, hugs Papillion-La Vista High Principal Jim Glover after being fired by the district's school board Tuesday.
Ziegler, 24, a Papillion-La Vista High School math teacher, was described as a "a marvelous young man," "an asset to the community," "honest, candid, capable."
"I hope my son can turn out to be as fine a gentleman as Mr. Ziegler," said Rick Black, an assistant superintendent for the Papillion-La Vista schools.
But Ziegler's bosses also said he repeatedly disobeyed their orders to stop preaching and start teaching.
Black and two other administrators said Ziegler had repeatedly talked about his personal religious beliefs in class, triggering complaints from students and a parent, and would not stop, even after his bosses told him it could cost him his job.
After taking testimony from the administrators and from Ziegler for two hours and 40 minutes Tuesday night, the Papillion-La Vista School Board voted 6-0 to terminate Ziegler's teaching contract on grounds of insubordination and unprofessional conduct.
Board President Valerie Fisher said the evidence was "clear." The board deliberated about 50 minutes.
Afterward, Ziegler said he would not challenge the decision in court. He did not have a lawyer, and he called no witnesses.
About 75 people - including some of his family members from the Riverton, Neb., area - attended the special hearing, which Ziegler requested to plead his case to the board.
Ziegler was a second-year teacher who got his bachelor's degree from Bethel College in Mishawaka, Ind. Bethel is an evangelical Christian college affiliated with the Missionary Church.
At the hearing, he told board members that his case was their opportunity to "make a stand for God."
"You're either for him or against him" he said.
Ziegler said that as a teacher he saw 120 students a day, many with "issues and worries" that were barriers to learning. By giving up their cares to Jesus, the students would be free to learn, he said.
The district's lawyer, Kelley Baker, however, asserted that the law clearly prohibits teachers from imposing their religious beliefs on students and from praying with or in the presence of them.
In a legal brief for the board, Baker wrote that school districts that fail to stop improper practices regarding religion can be held liable for a teacher's actions.
"School administrators have both the right and the obligation to direct teachers not to engage in such activity during school, and to stop it if they are already engaging in it," Baker wrote.
Jerry Kalina, an assistant principal at the high school, testified that a co-teacher from Ziegler's classroom first reported Oct. 4 that Ziegler was talking to students about his religious beliefs in class.
Ziegler was told to stop, but the co-teacher reported on Nov. 1 that he was doing it again, Kalina said.
A few days later, a student came to Kalina's office and said Ziegler was talking about his faith and that it upset her, Kalina said. The student said Ziegler had stopped her in the hall and asked if he could pray for her. She told him she felt uncomfortable while he prayed.
The girl's mother complained on Nov. 8 that she expected her daughter to learn math, not religion, in the class, Kalina said.
Kalina said he again told Ziegler to stop.
He said Ziegler was encouraged to talk to his minister and to contact former Cornhuskers receivers coach Ron Brown to get advice on how to juggle his beliefs and his teaching duties.
On Nov. 16, a student again raised the issue of Ziegler speaking about religion in class, Kalina said. The student said Ziegler wrote on the board "What inspires you to love people?" and another time "If you were to die today, what would you put on your tombstone, and why?"
The next day, a teacher reported that a student was not doing well in algebra because she felt uncomfortable asking Ziegler for help, Kalina said.
Ziegler was placed on administrative leave, with pay, on Nov. 18.
Kalina testified that he would "absolutely" like to have Ziegler back in the classroom, but only if he met one condition: "That he stop talking about Jesus Christ."
"My opinion is Mr. Ziegler was hired to teach math," he said. "And math instruction must come first."
Ziegler testified that his faith was too strong to set it aside.
"What they are telling me to do is in direct contradiction to what my authority, my God, is telling all believers to do," Ziegler said.
He admitted that on some days he spent up to 10 minutes per class discussing religion, though school officials said they had reports of longer periods.
Jim Glover, the principal at Papillion-La Vista High School, said Ziegler wasn't the first teacher he'd seen with strong beliefs.
"Over the last 32 years, there have been a number who have struggled as Rob has struggled. All were able to eventually make the separation," he said.
School board member Jim Thompson said that in eight years on the board, the hearing was the "toughest" meeting he'd attended.
Thompson said he hoped Ziegler could find a teaching job where professing his faith is "not only legal, but encouraged."
Cassie Young, 16, a student in one of Ziegler's pre-algebra classes, was among several students who left the hearing teary-eyed after the board announced its decision.
Young said the decision was "one more way of kicking God out of school."
"The law of man is wrong, and one day everyone will know that," she said.
See post 56.
Moral Standards have little meaning outside the context of a Religous world view. Arguments for Moral behavior are basically weak and trite when placed in a context that human life is nothing more than an accident of fate.
Trying to take moral stands without the context of religion is effectively moral relativism, because that moral stand is purely relative.
Again, if the students were failing to learn math, because of this teacher, fire his butt. If however it was not negatively impacting their education, which from the article it appears it was not, this is just anti-god communism.
I do not fear my child being exposed to religions or faiths that are not christian. If it is open intellectual discussion then I frankly encourage it. If its purely proselytizing than that is certainly inappropriate.
He wasn't doing that every day. He said SOME days he did. There's a difference.
Where are these moral standards obtained? Society is now pushing homosexual "marriages" as moral so schools should teach this?
Moral standards come from God. God's word is the bible. If we don't get our morals from God our morals will change constantly based on who is in power at the time. Bill Clinton in office - adultery/sex with your intern is moral. Lying stealing is moral. Clinton leaves office - never mind, new set of morals now...
> My word your world view is warped.
Is it? That's strange. I use mathematics every day to do my job. So does the Baptist missionary in the cubical next to me, and the Mormon on the other side. None of us plug a "god" function into our codes, or a "Jesus" macro into Excel. Perhaps our work would do better if we included God into data analysis?
> even if he used 10 minutes of every class to discuss religion, has it harmed or prevented his students from learning Math?
And if the religion he was pushing was Wicca or Islam, would you be as accomodating?
> This is purely an assault on God from the communist schools of Amerika.
Hmmm... What groups regularly spell "America" with a "K"?
The rest of your irrelevant post snipped.
> Moral Standards have little meaning outside the context of a Religous world view.
Except to those without religious world views. Moral standards can be just as powerful for them as they can be for the strongest believer.
> this is just anti-god communism
Ah, hysterics.
> If it is open intellectual discussion then I frankly encourage it.
In *math* *class*?
There is a vast difference between discussing and proselytizing... as an engineer you'd think you would know that. The article does not suggest that the teacher was proselytizing. I have no issue with my child being exposed to discussions of other folks spirituality.
You clearly have animosity toward religion, so be it. You are also incapable of reading an entire post as well, and have knee jerked because of those animosities, not suprisingly.
That would equate to 36 days of instruction per year. I think you would agree that we should not set aside 36 days of math classes for religion?
It might have been me.
As an unabashed Christian, the last thing in the world I would want (if I sent my children to the hell holes that government schools have become) would be some government employee proselytizing to my children. I choose the spiritual teachers of my children very carefully.
Not remotely true. Morality is simply an exercise in relativism for the secular. For if Morality is purely a matter of ones personal decisions, then it is possible fundamentally that anything can be moral.
To argue that Morality is just as defensible in secularism as it is from a religious foundation is flat out folly. Since in the secular world, morality is what you make it, it is free to whatever the individual decides it is... not absolute fundamental basis for it exists.. it derives purely from the whim of the subjective individual... and this is a house of cards.
Of course not.
It's sort of like how everyone is for states' rights until it comes to casino gambling, medicinal marijuana, assisted suicide, etc..........
> Moral standards come from God.
They also come from *other* gods. And they come from the use of reason.
> If we don't get our morals from God our morals will change constantly based on who is in power at the time.
Moral standards changed throughout Christian history. At one time, slavery was "moral," and was supported via scripture. At one time the Divine Right Of Kings was "moral." At one time subjugation of woman was "moral." At one time hunting down wiches was "moral." At one time the Prohibition of booze was "moral." At one time (thinking Plymouth Plantation here), communism was "moral."
Whether *you* think that these positions are Biblically supportable or not is irrelevant... the people at the time, reading their Bibles, saw that morality in there. As honestly as you hold your Bible-bas3ed positions... so did they.
> in the secular world, morality is what you make it
That's astonishingly wrong. So wrong that it's clear that debatign with you would be a waste of time.
> There is a vast difference between discussing and proselytizing...
Just as there's a vast difference between church and math class.
> You are also incapable of reading an entire post
No, I read it. It was irrelevant to the discussion.
He was stopping students in the hall and pressuring them to engage in prayer ...
He was also telling those who weren't doing well in algebra to give their problems to Jesus.
You know he would.
Carolyn
"The next day, a teacher reported that a student was not doing well in algebra because she felt uncomfortable asking Ziegler for help, Kalina said."
he saw 120 students a day, many with "issues and worries" that were barriers to learning. By giving up their cares to Jesus, the students would be free to learn, he said.
And bureacrats can't handle that - why, the only solution to these issues and worries are government programs, dontchaknow.
Wouldn't even to be that extreme. Many Catholic parents would object to Baptist doctrine being promoted and many Baptists likewise would object to Catholic doctrine.
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