Posted on 11/23/2004 12:35:48 PM PST by M 91 u2 K
Players insist line is crossed two ways BY MICHAEL OBERNAUER DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITER Tuesday, November 23rd, 2004
One day after David Stern smacked nine players with a total of 142 games worth of suspensions, New York's pro athletes echoed the NBA commissioner's call for accountability. But many of them weren't discussing the players, they were talking about the fans. "Because they pay a lot of money to sit there, it shouldn't give them the right to say whatever," Knicks guard Allan Houston said. "The reality is that we're all human. Nobody can say, 'I wouldn't have done that,' because nobody knows how you're going to react when you get hit with something from 30 feet away."
The ugly brawl between players and fans in Friday's Pistons-Pacers game at The Palace of Auburn Hills - as well as the punishments that followed - have caused players and coaches in all sports to take stock of the complicated relationship between performer and spectator. But while some players believe that fans are obliged to adhere to a code of conduct, others just want them to keep their hands - and beers - to themselves.
"I've heard some of the most absurd and insulting things yelled out at me," said Nets center Alonzo Mourning. "But you're entitled to yell what you want to yell out of the stands. You pay your ticket, you can scream and yell at the refs, the players, the coaches, all of that.
"But when you start throwing things, you cross the line."
Giants linebacker Carlos Emmons, who was an Eagle from 2000-03 and thinks Philly fans are as nasty as they come, said he could empathize with Ron Artest and Co.
"At some point if security is not going to do anything, who's going to protect you? They say, 'Just stand there and walk away,' but how can you stand there and walk away when you've got 40 or 50 cups of beer coming at your face?"
Houston and Mourning each know a thing or two about Detroit fans, who on Friday only cemented their reputation as the rudest hosts in the NBA. Houston played three years with the Pistons before signing with the Knicks in 1996, while Mourning, inactive for last season's playoffs, earned a crash course in taunting while sitting on the Nets' bench during the four second-round games at The Palace.
"To me it's a different crowd than when I was there," Houston said. "It's a little more hostile."
"They were verbally abusing (coach Lawrence) Frank, I mean they really were," Mourning said of the playoff crowd. "I kind of felt bad for him just sitting there listening to it.
"But are the police going to go back over the tapes (of Friday's game) and look at what fan did what and penalize them? No."
So what can be done? Tom Gamboa, the former Kansas City Royals first base coach who was attacked on the Comiskey Park field by a drunken father-son duo in September 2002, said he's wholeheartedly behind Stern's severe response. But he's adamant that fans need to accept responsibility for their actions, too - or else have responsibility thrust on them.
"There are no real repercussions for fans who cross that line, and that really needs to be addressed," Gamboa told the Daily News last night. "If all they have to do is spend one night in jail and pay a fine - someone who's had a few beers? On a dare they're going to do that.
"When people see I got attacked and (the attackers) got probation, they think, 'What are they going to do to me? If I throw my beer or my popcorn on this guy, what are they going to do, eject me? That'll be worth it.' "
Jets coach Herman Edwards called the brawl "an isolated incident," but said he sees it as a symptom of a far more systemic problem.
"We always say, 'The fans,' but I think it's society," Edwards said. "You see young people today, they don't say 'Thank you' and 'Please.' They don't open the door for a woman. . . . We live in the best country in the world. We shouldn't act that way as people, period."
With Rich Cimini, Ralph Vacchiano and Frank Isola
Hecklers' heaven
Rating the worst NBA arenas when it comes to the fans' treatment of visiting players:
Detroit: Friday's riot merely solidified Detroit's long-standing No. 1 ranking. The Palace's security personnel allow constant, hostile heckling behind the visiting team bench. The back-dock loading area, where team busses are parked, fills after games with fans and has been the site of trouble between Pistons players and opponents.
Indiana: Vocal fans check their political correctness at the arena door, as Patrick Ewing and Allen Iverson found out over the years. Iverson was called "monkey'' and "jailbird'' and the N-word in 2001. Even opposing team's executives aren't immune from constant haranguing when they sit in the Pacers' arena.
Sacramento: Long before Pedro Martinez heard it at the Stadium, Kings fans were taunting Latrell Sprewell with chants of "who's your daddy?'' after he had a shot blocked in Arco Arena. That was tame, compared to caustic comments targeting Lakers players and coaches in recent years after Phil Jackson dubbed Sacramento "cow-town.''
Mitch Lawrence
5 for fighting
Friday night's incident in Auburn Hills was hardly the first time fans have turned violent. Here's a look at five other regrettable moments in the history of fans gone bad:
Dec. 23, 1979: After the Bruins beat the Rangers, 4-3, at the Garden, Blueshirts goalie John Davidson goes after Bruins forward Al Secord. A brawl starts near the Zamboni entrance and a fan pulls the stick from Stan Jonathon's hand and hits the Bruins enforcer in the face. Bruins captain Terry O'Reilly climbs over the glass to get to the fan and many Bruins follow, including Mike Milbury, who famously starts beating a fan with his own shoe.
July 11, 1996: Again at the Garden, punches are supposed to be thrown during the bout between Riddick Bowe and Andrew Golota. But after Golota is disqualified for a low blow, Bowe's manager, Rock Newman, charges into the ring with another member of Bowe's entourage. They start hitting Golota and angry fans storm the ring brandishing chairs as weapons. Golota leaves the ring bloody after the incident, which at one point includes at least 50 people in the ring, not to mention fights between fans of the two fighters throughout the arena.
March 29, 2001: In Philadelphia, Toronto Maple Leafs goon Tie Domi is right at home in the penalty box and squirts some water on fans in the front row. One of them takes offense and lunges towards Domi, landing on the glass partition between the stands and the box. The glass gives way, allowing Domi and the fan to briefly duke it out until a linesman steps in to break things up. Domi is suspended for eight games.
Sept. 20, 2002/April 15, 2003: A shirtless father and son tandem at Comiskey Park in Chicago comes out of the stands and assaults Royals first base coach Tom Gamboa, giving him permanent hearing loss. The father gets only 30 months' probation, but can't stay out of trouble - he's arrested this May for burglary. The 2003 season gets underway with a bang as a White Sox fan charges onto the field in another game against the Royals and goes after first base umpire Laz Diaz. That fan is pulled away by Kansas City right fielder Brandon Berger and security guards, then sentenced to 180 days in jail.
Sept. 13, 2004: A heckler behind the Texas Rangers' bullpen at the Coliseum in Oakland gets under the skin of pitcher Doug Brocail. While Brocail is restrained, Frank Francisco - an earlier target of the heckling - is not. He races to the bullpen from the dugout, grabs a chair and throws it at the heckler, but misses - it hits a woman nearby in the face and breaks her nose. Oakland police arrest the righthander after the game and take him to jail, where he is held until teammates post bond for him an hour later. Francisco, who is suspended for the rest of the season, still faces up to a year in jail if convicted of a misdemeanor assault charge.
1) Can you "stand there" and "walk away" simultaneously? Obviously not. The man has a point.
2) Was anyone hit by 40 or 50 cups of beer? Were 40 or 50 cups of beer thrown? Perhaps the man is delusional.
For the amount of money these yahoos get paid, they should be willing to be pelted by anything!
Are you saying that because someone is rich we are allowed to throw things at them? The money they make is irrevelant. They should be treated with some amount of respect same as if they were poor.
In 1919 when the Black Sox scandal hit baseball, the league moved aggressively to recapture a clean image. When the NBA follows suit, I will support the effort, and I will re-think my attitude at that time.
Last time I checked
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
The problem I have is that Artest didn't go into the stands because of what the fan SAID but because of what he DID. the fan should be held accountable for his actions, but SO SHOULD THE PLAYERS. And from the tape, the player's response to the fans actions were extraordinarily disproportionate. The players ceased to be innocent bystanders when they charged into the stands and beat up whomever they thought (THOUGHT) threw the cup. The response to getting hit by a cup of beer is not to assault and batter the thrower.
Further, no matter what ANY person says, I DO NOT have the right to punch their lights out. Fans who were attacked because of what they said should have redress in the courts against the thugs of the NBA in my opinion.
If Larry Bird and the NBA were honorable, they would throw these thugs out and let them try to use their college degrees to get a real job. I'm sick of seeing coaches and professional sports organizations coddle the players that play well on the team and excuse everything from assault and battery to skipping all classes to homicide.
I do not disagree with that. I thought you were implying that if I (as a CPA) made millions then I shouldn't complain if someone throws things at me all day.
As far as I can tell, Artest and his fellow Pacers hit a number of people who didn't throw anything at him. That is the problem here. People would have alot of sympathy for Artest if he had gone after the guy who threw the beer at him. But he didn't do that. Instead, Artest treated the people he went after as if they had collective guilt for what one idiot did to him.
"...but how can you stand there and walk away when you've got 40 or 50 cups of beer coming at your face?"
No thanks, that's WAY more than I can drink.
For $5-10-15 million a season, you can throw all the beer at me you want, and I promise I won't go after anyone. Just blow some kisses!
PS There are many of us and there were many in the past who would play for peanuts to be a major leaguer
That's a good point. They claim the incident started when someone DID something to Artest, but excuse his attacking at ramdom because of what people were SAYING TO HIM.
The thing nobody is mentioning is what a pussy artest is. Instead of trying to stand up to Wallace, who he provoked, he goes after some random dweeb in the audience who didn't even throw the cup!
The only reason he did that is because he felt like a bitch.
I agree, players and fans both.
If you ban any sale of alcoholic beverages at sporting venues I believe a lot of the fans who cross the line would hesitate to do it. When give them that 12ozs of loud mouth and 12ozs of courage you have problems. Don't get me wrong. I'm definitely not a teetotaler, but there is a time and place for its consumption and obviously when fans step over the line the sporting venue is not the time and place.
If you were making millions from your customers and they, because of what those customers perceived as poor performance on your part, started throwing things at you? Sure, you have a right to complain.
Does that mean you also have a right to retaliate for someone throwing a beer at you by beating the hell out of anyone who you think might have thrown it? I don't think so.
I think fans should be fined or prosecuted for behaving like idiots and throwing whatever at any sporting event. Perhaps the city or whomever owns the stadium should also have to pay the team under assault for not being able to control the crowd in its facility. If I'm a landlord and don't take measures to protect my tenants from crime on my facility, the tenants can sue me.
I also think that players who cross the line and attack fans should face harsh penalties from both the league and law enforcement.
Please do not include me in the group of people who would have a lot of sympathy for Artest "if he had gone after the guy who threw the beer at him."
Throwing a beer -- or anything else, for that matter -- at another person in anger is just wrong. The "fan" who did that was little more than a thug or a goon.
BUT..... That is why we have police and security officials.
Meeting thuggishness with thugginess leads to brawls.
And often innocent people get hurt in brawls.
There was no excuse -- none -- for what Artest did.
widdle Arteest dodont like a gwass of bweer twon on he, do he?
During the game, an Eagles player was hit and landed face down. He didn't move, and players from BOTH teams came over and knelt down to wait. The stadium was hushed -- clearly, the player was hurt.
I heard a fan yell "He's Dead! He's Dead!" and start to laugh and cheer about it. I turned around and he was about ten rows back. I told him to be quiet and show some respect. He laughed, as did many in the section. I remained standing and told him again to be respectful. At that point, he sat down.
Then the drunk idiot started yelling at me, and when the guy next to me told him to stop, the drunk idiot started threatening him and others. It looked like a fight was about to start (the drunk was three rows back). I looked at the field, and there was a cop right in front of our section. I got his attention and pointed to the drunk idiot. The cop spoke into his walkie-talkie, and within a minute cops came down and dragged the bum out.
Decent people just need to stand up to the jackasses and help security and police. We don't need to subject ourselves and our families to this kind of crap.
I will take a wild guess and say that no one directly associated with this melee has a college degree.
Someone who knows please correct me if I am wrong.
On the contrary, they should have the right to SAY anything. But THROWING things is a different matter.
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