Replies

Of course the liberals will claim it was fabricated. They can't take the fact that moral men of religion founded the country.

Well there are some civil states with a democratic tradition that are largely not religious now. So Adams was wrong. Granted, the non religious are living off the capital of religious insights. I certainly do, and I am not religious at all.

When a government fails to represent the majority for fear of lawsuits from minorities and can't represent minorities for fear of voters, it ceases to be a government capable of representing anyone.

In your research, look up the Treaty of Tripoli, article 11: As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

Be prepared (if your opponent is prepared) to defend the "As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion" being taken out of context.

Also, try to understand that our founding fathers believed in deism, and may not have necessarily considered themselves to be Christian. They believed in a higher power called God, and in Natural Law, but were probably not as encumbered by denomination obsession as we are today.

It seems to me we should be using this quote much more often in debates with liberals.

You're right, but what good would it do?

Liberals pick the quotes that suit their purpose, and reject any others. That's what they did with Jefferson's quote about the "wall of separation" to the Danbury pastors.

Have John Adams' remains been dug up and sued by the ACLU yet?

Why did John Adams have to take a cheap shot at Clinton?

Here's another one for your arsenal from President George Washington:

"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness -- these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked, Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle."

It's a great quote, but there's one problem:

Liberals don't like John Adams.

If you want more material than you can possibly use...

http://personal.pitnet.net/primarysources/

Adams was one of the more devout among our Founding Fathers. As it turned out we needed the religious zealots and the skeptics alike to form our government. They created a sound balance to one another. In any case, there was a lot of discussion that went on outside of the Constitution. What went into the Constitution is what became our law. The states themselves adopted similar injunctions against religious establishment, including the state of Alabama.

A land which needs to declare the religious beliefs of its citizens through government is a land either gripped by tyranny or fear. We would be both if we suddenly had to announce our religion from Washington DC. It would automatically exclude a lot of people from the right to government with representation. It would also strike fear into many more, many who know the true history of the Reformation and the secular causes for religious civil war.

The Enlightenment freed us to follow our own beliefs in private while using reason and persuasion to establish our laws. The Founding Fathers as well as being mainly Christian were also the best political students of the Enlightenment we know. And they knew better than to establish a state religion or even found this nation on a particular religion. They knew that it was the people whose own beliefs would matter. John Adams does not contradict that argument in any way.

The right defense against Islamism is to remove it from America. Its stated purpose of a religious state is in direct opposition to our Constitution; in fact, it is tantamount to open sedition. The right defense of religious liberty is to keep religion and government separate. We are a nation of laws, not men. Men have their beliefs. The law stands on reason. Any law that doesn't belongs to those who follow them without explanation. And yes, most of the 10 commandments have logical, well-reasoned meanings that we can use to convince each other are just.

In fact, the second amendment, based on our sacred, inalienable right to self-defense, is a far superior protection of religious freedom than any addition we could make to our Constitution today. Never forget that. The minute you do will be the minute someone, somewhere begings to scheme a way to announce your religious beliefs for you. Quite in opposition to what the contemporary liberals believe, arms are the Enlightenment's best friend. They are also the Christian's best friend, as the Swiss proved in their early role in the Reformation.

Noted your later post (#18) stating that this was not the topic of your debate, but should you want to pursue this topic in your research, might I suggest checking out "The Light and the Glory" by Peter Marshall and David Manuel. Bunches of good info (documented) that among other things debunks the oft mentioned platitude that the founding fathers were only deists and has been posted here...

Some more quotes along this line:

"It is impossible to govern rightly without God and the Bible."

--- George Washington

"Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of people that these liberties are the gift of God?"

--- Thomas Jefferson

"With malice towards none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right."

---Abraham Lincoln, Second Inaugural Address, March 4, 1865

"We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government: upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."

--- James Madison

"We must realize that no weapon in the arsenals of the world is so formidable as the will and moral courage of free men and women."

--- Ronald Reagan

"I have lived, Sir, a long time and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth -- that God governs the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire cannot rise without His aid? We have been assured in the sacred writings that, 'except the Lord build the house they labor in vain that build it.'"

--- Benjamin Franklin, at the Constitutional Convention, June 28, 1787

"A general dissolution of principles and manners will more surely overthrow the liberties of America than the whole force of the common enemy. While the people are virtuous they cannot be subdued; but when once they lose their virtue then will be ready to surrender their liberties to the first external or internal invader."

---Samuel Adams

"We have this day restored the Sovereign to whom all men ought to be obedient. He reigns in Heaven, and from the rising to the setting of the sun, let His Kingdom come."

--- Samuel Adams, as he signed the Declaration of Independence

"Our Fathers were brought up by their veneration for the Christian religion. They journeyed by its light, and labored in its hope. They sought to incorporate its principles within the elements of their society, and to diffuse its influence through all their institutions -- civil, political, or literary."

--- Daniel Webster

"To the distinguished character of a Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of a Christian."

--- George Washington

"A patriot without religions is as great a paradox as an honest man without the fear of God...The scriptures tell us 'righteousness exalts a nation.'"

--- Abigail Adams

"The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity."

--- John Quincy Adams

"Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped...As to Jesus of Nazareth...I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, is the best the World ever saw, or is likely to see."

---Benjamin Franklin

"No power over the freedom of religion...[is] delegated to the United States by the Constitution."

---Thomas Jefferson

"Proclaim liberty throughout the land unto all the inhabitants thereof."

---Leviticus 25:10, inscribed on the Liberty Bell

"We have forgotten God. We have forgotten the gracious hand which preserved us in peace and multiplied and enriched and strengthened us, and we have vainly imagined, in the deceitfulness of our hearts, that all these blessings were produced by some superior wisdom and virtue of our own. Intoxicated with unbroken success, we have become too self-sufficient to feel the necessity of redeeming and preserving grace, too proud to pray to the God that made us."

---Abraham Lincoln's 1863 Thanksgiving Proclamation

"Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle."

---George Washington, in his farewell address

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

---Benjamin Franklin

"Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death!"

---Patrick Henry, Speech in the Virginia Convention, March, 1775

"The God who gave us life, gave us liberty at the same time."

---Thomas Jefferson

"Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just."

---Thomas Jefferson

"Whatever makes men good Christians, makes them good citizens."

---Daniel Webster

"Thank God! I--I also--am an American!"

---Daniel Webster

"God grants liberty only to those who love it, and are always ready to guard and defend it."

---Daniel Webster

Adams, a Unitarian, flatly denied the doctrine of eternal damnation. In a letter to Thomas Jefferson, he wrote:

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"

In his letter to Samuel Miller, 8 July 1820, Adams admitted his unbelief of Protestant Calvinism: "I must acknowledge that I cannot class myself under that denomination."
JOHN ADAMS

In his, "A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America" [1787-1788], John Adams wrote:

"The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses.

". . . Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind."

As you walk up the steps to the building which houses the U.S. Supreme Court
you can see near the top of the building a row of the world's law givers and each
one is facing one in the middle who is facing forward with a full frontal view
... it is Moses and he is holding the Ten Commandments!

DID YOU KNOW?

As you enter the Supreme Court courtroom, the two huge oak doors have the Ten Commandments engraved on each lower portion of each door.

DID YOU KNOW?

As you sit inside the courtroom, you can see the wall,
right above where the Supreme Court judges sit, display of the Ten Commandments!

DID YOU KNOW?

There are Bible verses etched in stone all over the
Federal Buildings and Monuments in Washington, D.C.

DID YOU KNOW?

James Madison, the fourth president, known as "The Father of Our Constitution" made the following statement:
"We have staked the whole of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves,
to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments
of God."

DID YOU KNOW?

Patrick Henry, that patriot and Founding Father of our country
said: "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this
great nation was founded not by religionists but by Christians! , not on
religions but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ".

DID YOU KNOW?

Every session of Congress begins with a prayer by a paid preacher,
whose salary has been paid by the taxpayer since 1777.

DID YOU KNOW?

Fifty-two of the 55 founders of the Constitution were
members of the established orthodox churches in the colonies.

DID YOU KNOW?

Thomas Jefferson worried that the Courts would overstep
their authority and instead of interpreting the law would begin making
law an oligarchy, the rule of few over many.

DID YOU KNOW?

The very first Supreme Court Justice, John Jay, said:
"Americans should select and prefer Christians as their rulers."
How, then, have we gotten to the point that everything we have done for 220 years in
this country is now suddenly wrong and unconstitutional?

Please give a copy of this to everyone you can. Lets put it around the world and let the world see and remember what this great country was built on.

Thank you!!

Ping.

Read "Slouching Towards Gomorrah" by Robert Bork. Great book on the topic.

Here's a couple more quotes:

"Religion and virtue are the only foundations, not only of all free government, but of social felicity under all governments and in all the combinations of human society." John Adams

"The highest glory of the American Revolution was this; it connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity. John Quincy Adams

"Man, considered as a creature, must necessarily be subject to the laws of his Creator, for he is entirely a dependent being....And, consequently, as man depends absolutely upon his Maker for everything, it is necessary that he should in all points conform to his Maker's will...this will of his Maker is called the law of nature. These laws laid down by God are the eternal immutable laws of good and evil...This law of nature dictated by God himself, is of course superior in obligation to any other. It is binding over all the globe, in all countries, and at all times: no human laws are of any validity if contrary to this... Sir William Blackstone

"It is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of
Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits,
and humbly to implore his protection and favors." --George
Washington

Check out the Federalist - they have an archive of interesting and useful quotes.

https://secure.federalist.com/

bookmarking

and thanks much to AVNevis for posting this thread.

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." -John Adams

Thanks for posting this...I have been looking for it all day.