The killing of Theo van Gogh and the aftermath

I have read several comments by FReepers about the slaugthering of Theo van Gogh and see a lot of half truths about it. Therefore I will write this short report from Utrecht (The Netherlands).

Theo van Gogh was a very famous film maker and columnist in The Netherlands. His movies were about several topics including a remake of Romeo and Julia with a Dutch girl and a Morrocan immigrant. He was a very generous guy as all his friends mentioned at the funeral and a good citizen (working for his son's sportclub). His other side was his fun in provoking people. He has provoked almost every well-known person in the Netherlands. For instance, there has been a lawsuit against him for commenting: "It smells like caramel, they must be burning the Jews with diabetes". He just loved to create conflicts.

He has been sacked as a columnist numerous times and the last few years he used the free newspaper in public traffic and his website www.degezonderoker.nl (thehealthysmoker) for his insults. Last years a lot of his insults were pointed against Muslims which he always mentioned as goatf*uckers. And yes, that is possible in the NL. I read an article about a NYT reporter who was thinking how he was going to translate that. I read in the NYT that he finally used "bestiality with a goat". :-)

Another person in the NL who is trying to start a discussion about Muslims and the Koran is Ayaan Hirsi Ali (House of Representatives for the liberal party). She is originally from Somalia and when she was told to marry a guy she fled to the NL. She asked Theo van Gogh to do a short film about Mulims women surpression and he did. Ayaan has been threatened so many times (she is someone who is not Muslim anymore, don't know the word for that) that she got police protection 24/7. Theo did not want protection.

Last week Theo van Gogh was cycling through Amsterdam and Mohammed B. shot him several times, slit his throat and than stabbed two knifes in him. One was sticking a letter to Ayaan Hirsi Ali to his body.

That night 20.000 people were making a lot of noise on the Dam (square) in Amsterdam to make a statement that this will not be tolerated. Also several Muslim demonstrations have been held after Tuesday. And a few rightwing extremist (neo nazis) were having demonstrations but these were aborted by the police.

A few more people were arrested in the aftermath and police are searching Mohammed B.'s religious teacher. They both had contact with Samir A., the guy who was arrested for planning attacks against the House of Rep.

Mohammed B. was raised in the NL and was a normal (read: moderate Muslim) until two years ago. He started visiting more radical mosques, got a beard and started wearing djelaba's. People around him say that he started becoming radical after his mother died of cancer. But when he got radical they lost contact.

Since Theo van Gogh was not a normal guy his friends organised a party the day before his funeral. They even had a corner with goats behind a fence with a sign above it: "For people that have the urge". :-)

Since last Tuesday a few attacks have been commited against Islamic schools and mosques. This ranged from small fires to thrown-in windows. Apart from two other attacks: A bomb attack at a Islamic school in Eindhoven and yesterday a fire that burned down a Islamic school in Uden. Also several churces have been under attack in recent days and yesterday night (I cannot believe it) the church in the village I grew up at (Boxmeer) was set on fire (small one though).

This morning I woke up and learned that the terrorism police squad tried to enter a house in The Hague and got a grenade thrown at them. Three police men were hurt. The police is trying to prevent the thing that happened in Madrid (exploding house when they entered) and are still waiting to enter the house. It is now even prohibited to fly over The Hague.

I can tell you guys this. Living in the Netherlands at this moment in time is very unreal. The song I keep having in my head this morning is "We gotta get out of this place.." I am starting to think more and more that we are on the edge of a major conflict within the NL (as some of you guys have been telling al along), but I am not ready to give up on the Muslim community in the Netherlands.

If it happens I probably have move to another country (perhaps to America like Theo van Gogh was going to do when his son finally got 18, is now 12 I believe). We'll see...

Btw. People were questioning my Dutch decent because of my English but I lived in England for half a year so that's why.

If anyone has any questions about the Netherlands or the situation as of now, please feel free to ask.

For me, one of the most interesting things is to compare this reaction in the Netherlands to the American reaction after 911. It could be that the Dutch arsonists aren't afraid of punishment in the same way as would happen in the US. Furthermore, it is ironic that European intellectuals want us to believe that European society is more calm and fair but then something like this can set them off in a way that surpasses the American response.

The antiMuslim arsonists are surely skinheads. The difference between Europe and America is that Europe has a substantial "white power" faction that is much rarer here. Europe hasn't come to grips with issues of white racism and antisemitism.

From what I've read, many Muslims would disagree with you. In spite of the hours and hours I've spent studying this issue, I am certainly no expert on the subject. At some point I find it necessary to go back to my roots. My Christian and American roots.

Just as some distort the teachings of our Bible, or take them out of context, or even view them in "literal" terms, there are those who do the same with the Quran. I had a friend in college years ago who was a Muslim. Lovely girl from a good and kind family. They respected my faith, as I did theirs...which is the American way.

I sometimes think it would be good medicine for some of the folks here on FR if they would get to know a Muslim family. It's so easy to spew hate and venom, and engulf yourself in fear, when you don't have personal contact with a group of people. Rather than surrounding yourself with people who feel exactly the same as you do, wisely or not, nothing is more educational than a real life confrontation with what you think you believe.

I remember watching a show a few years ago about White Supremists. They interviewed a few of them and asked them about their beliefs. Then, as an experiment they asked one of these young men (White Supremists) if he would be willing to live in a black family's home for a week. He agreed to this but denied that it would influence his beliefs at all. He hated blacks, all blacks.

Well, it was an amazing thing to witness! After a week of living in their home, and becoming a part of their every-day life, this young man was transformed. He saw that everything he had believed about "them" was wrong. Ah, the handiwork of God is everywhere. :)

I've been cleaning house here and it just dawned on me that you thought I was saying that YOU were doing the work of the devil. I'm very sorry you thought that was what I was saying. I believe you took what I was saying out of context.

I said, "To intentionally harm someone who is not responsible for an act of terror, is an act of terror in itself. You would be no better than radical Muslim extremists/terrorists, and you would not be acting in God's name. You'd be doing the work of the devil."

I wasn't implying that YOU are NOW doing the work of the devil nor that you would. I was using "you" to mean "anyone" who would do such a thing. okee dokee?

"Here is an article that you truly want to believe as do many others."

By that statement do you mean that we are to disregard anything Muslims, and even American Muslims, say? I can't remember who it was on FR that told me that American Muslims have done nothing to stand up against terrorism. I have researched that and found that they were not speaking the truth. And now it would appear (correct me if I've misunderstood) that no matter what they say, no matter what they do to try to fight this War on Terror along with us, and the prejudice against them that terrorists have created, you wouldn't believe them anyhow. It appears that some are putting our good American Muslim neighbors between a rock and a hard place.

I'm sure that they would disagree. Can you imagine what it would be like to try to defend following the teachings and admonishments of the 'prophet' Mo?

Just as some distort the teachings of our Bible, or take them out of context, or even view them in "literal" terms, there are those who do the same with the Quran. I had a friend in college years ago who was a Muslim. Lovely girl from a good and kind family. They respected my faith, as I did theirs...which is the American way.

Just as an exercise, every time you use the word Muslim, replace it with the word Satanist. Every time you use the term Koran, replace it with the term Satanic Bible, then tell me how you feel defending the 'moderates'. Also, if you had attended that college in the middle east, most likely that lovely girl would have had her genitals mutilated by that same good and kind family. (Yes, even the 'moderates' do this over there.)

I sometimes think it would be good medicine for some of the folks here on FR if they would get to know a Muslim family. It's so easy to spew hate and venom, and engulf yourself in fear, when you don't have personal contact with a group of people. Rather than surrounding yourself with people who feel exactly the same as you do, wisely or not, nothing is more educational than a real life confrontation with what you think you believe.

The muslims rent our convention center once a year over here. (Pasadena, Texas) It is a large facility. Before their activities begin they are required to 'clean' the building from the 'filth' of the non-muslims. (That would be you and me.) A couple of years ago, one of our cleaning ladies (non-muslim) accidentally walked into the building after it had been 'cleaned'. The 'moderate' American muslims threw a wall-eyed hissy fit. The building had been contaminated by the 'filth' of this Christian woman. They had to 'clean' the whole building all over again. (Whaaaaaa) Tolerant bunch, huh?

I remember watching a show a few years ago about White Supremists. They interviewed a few of them and asked them about their beliefs. Then, as an experiment they asked one of these young men (White Supremists) if he would be willing to live in a black family's home for a week. He agreed to this but denied that it would influence his beliefs at all. He hated blacks, all blacks.

Well, it was an amazing thing to witness! After a week of living in their home, and becoming a part of their every-day life, this young man was transformed. He saw that everything he had believed about "them" was wrong. Ah, the handiwork of God is everywhere. :)

Sorry dear, but here you are comparing apples to oranges.

What surpises me about the whole Netherland thing...is the speed of events. The attacks on the Mosques...took only a couple of days. The reaction of the police to the explosives found...apparently have set off a national high police posture. The US state department has declared this weekend a period for Americans not to travel around the Hague. This didn't take months after the van Gogh killing...it took mere days.

Here in Germany, there is a high watch upon what is happening in the Netherlands. If it triggers any anti-Muslim efforts...then revenge will occur...and the right-wing in Germany benefits greatly.

If this weekend goes off without any violence...then the whole situation may simple tail off. But if more violence occurs...I'd watch for additional situations in Denmark and Germany by next week. This thing has a opportunity to take off.

What is said quite often in the last few days about the attacks on mosques (police believe they have been attacked by right wing extremists) is the fact that in Holland (and in Germany even more I believe) extreme right is not allowed to have a political voice. And since there is no political outlet, people take action in their own hands.

I'm no expert but hey, sounds plausible.

It looks like politics and police are trying to show to the public that they are going to stop muslim extremism with all means available... several arrests... new legislation... raid on a PKK training camp at a holiday farm (sic!).

It looks like the situation is cooling down at the moment and we have to wait and see for the next x years what the results will be.

"Just as an exercise, every time you use the word Muslim, replace it with the word Satanist. Every time you use the term Koran, replace it with the term Satanic Bible, then tell me how you feel defending the 'moderates'. Also, if you had attended that college in the middle east, most likely that lovely girl would have had her genitals mutilated by that same good and kind family. (Yes, even the 'moderates' do this over there.)"

My goodness, when you put it that way, it could make someone who bases their opinions on extreme comparisons inclined to believe that all Muslims are evil, and no better than Satanists. I'm sure there are many who have taken your advice. Could you provide me of an instance of genital mutilation of a child in this country performed by a Muslim? In order for you to state that, I'm assuming you would have had to have learned about it in some news report, etc. And if so, I wonder why whoever did such a thing wouldn't have been arrested? We do have laws about harming our children, and all citizens for that matter. I would think if a citizen can be arrested for slapping their child, then they would certainly be arrested for mutilating their child.

"The muslims rent our convention center once a year over here. (Pasadena, Texas) It is a large facility. Before their activities begin they are required to 'clean' the building from the 'filth' of the non-muslims. (That would be you and me.) A couple of years ago, one of our cleaning ladies (non-muslim) accidentally walked into the building after it had been 'cleaned'. The 'moderate' American muslims threw a wall-eyed hissy fit. The building had been contaminated by the 'filth' of this Christian woman. They had to 'clean' the whole building all over again. (Whaaaaaa) Tolerant bunch, huh?"

And they clean this entire, large facility for free? Wow, what a deal! Wish I could find some Muslims who would like to rent my house once a month. LOL So they really did clean it yet again after just one Christian woman breached their clean zone? Sheesh, if that is true, that's anal, but probably not "evil". My mom taught me that a little soap and water never hurt anyone. LOL

"Sorry dear, but here you are comparing apples to oranges."

As for the apples and oranges, it appears that you did not understand the point I was attempting to make. I was not attempting to compare White Supremists to people who are racist against all Muslims. My point is that sometimes a person can have strong opinions on any given subject, feeling certain that they are absolutely right in their thinking, and yet, be wrong. Perhaps their walk in life never led them to a greater understanding, or an open mind due to exterior forces in their life. This young, White Supremist, who learned an extremely valuable life lesson that week, was only able to learn because he was willing to face his hatred and fears, face to face, by walking in the footsteps of the very group of people he had vowed to hate forever.

Thank you for your posts. I know this can be an emotional subject for all of us. :)

My goodness, when you put it that way, it could make someone who bases their opinions on extreme comparisons inclined to believe that all Muslims are evil, and no better than Satanists.

Are you saying that muslims are better than satanists, even the 'moderates'? Please explain your logic 'cause now it sounds like you're saying that some religions ARE better than others. ;-)

And they clean this entire, large facility for free? Wow, what a deal! Wish I could find some Muslims who would like to rent my house once a month. LOL So they really did clean it yet again after just one Christian woman breached their clean zone? Sheesh, if that is true, that's anal, but probably not "evil". My mom taught me that a little soap and water never hurt anyone. LOL

Check this part out Chena: They don't clean it with soap and water. No amount of scrubbing would work.

They bring in large rolls of paper. They lay the paper down over the entire facility so that they won't have to touch the place. Then they say prayers over it.

The poor woman merely opened the door and stepped inside onto the paper. That was it. They had to wad up all the paper and start all over. I thought it was pretty darned anal myself. LOL

I was not attempting to compare White Supremists to people who are racist against all Muslims.

This is where we are disconnecting. The FReepers you refer to are not racist against muslims. Muslim is not a race. It is the teachings of their 'prophet' and his books. That's the problem.

Thank you for your posts. I know this can be an emotional subject for all of us.

Ditto.

"Are you saying that muslims are better than satanists, even the 'moderates'? Please explain your logic 'cause now it sounds like you're saying that some religions ARE better than others. ;-)"

Well, I suppose I am saying that Muslims are better than Satanists, although that wasn't a turn in the conversation I was trying to take. I would think that a religion who worships Satan would be worse than a religion that worships God.

"The poor woman merely opened the door and stepped inside onto the paper. That was it. They had to wad up all the paper and start all over. I thought it was pretty darned anal myself. LOL"

Sheesh! Convert a Muslim, save a tree! LOL

"This is where we are disconnecting. The FReepers you refer to are not racist against muslims. Muslim is not a race. It is the teachings of their 'prophet' and his books. That's the problem."

You are absolutely right. I hesitated to use the word, "racist", but alas, went on ahead and did so because I just couldn't think of another term at the moment. Good catch. teehee Perhaps a more appropriate word would have been "bigot" (a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices). Yea, I looked up the definition so I wouldn't make the same mistake again. :) I, myself, prefer to not choose a mindset that could be defined by either of those terms.

It can be agreed that some of the teachings in the Quran are horrifying. That being said, I have heard what appear to be intelligent people of the Muslim faith on television who have explained that your average, normal Joe Muslim, does NOT agree with those teachings. The extremists do.

They explain it in the same way I've had to explain to our sons as they grew up that not every word in the Bible is to be taken literally. You probably know this scene...those conversations with young people who can point to the worst possible examples in the Bible that would make us all seem either evil, or incredibly gullible for believing such things.

Perhaps by now you understand more accurately what my opinions are and we can agree to disagree. Unless you'd like to change your mind? LOL

Fact: We are at war with Islamic extremists who use the worst phrases in the Quran to justify their evil acts.
Fact: Not ALL Muslims are extremists.
Fact: The majority of Muslims within our own borders, and many abroad, wish to live in peace and harmony with the rest of us.
Fact: We have some Muslim extremists in our own country who wish to attack us along with their terrorist cohorts from abroad.
Fact: We must be diligent, and hunt down those that plot to murder us all.
Fact: For those of us who are Christians, it is imperative that we continue to "live" what we preach. Hating or wishing ill upon an entire group of people because of the actions of some, goes against what God's Word teaches us.
Fact: It is not helpful to create enemies by hating, and disrespecting our friends (Moderate Muslims).

backatcha (*,*)

backatcha (*,*)

Okiedoke...here goes

I would think that a religion who worships Satan would be worse than a religion that worships God.

First off, if you were able to pull back the veil from the deity that the moon rock worshippers bow to, do you think that you would see Christ? Not a chance. Then WHO is it they bow to? I think that when the veil gets pulled back, (and it will) they will be shocked. (and you too)

That being said, I have heard what appear to be intelligent people of the Muslim faith on television who have explained that your average, normal Joe Muslim, does NOT agree with those teachings.

Yea, and that is about the teetotal extent of their protest of these actions. Don't you think that there are a lot of words missing here?

They explain it in the same way I've had to explain to our sons as they grew up that not every word in the Bible is to be taken literally. You probably know this scene...those conversations with young people who can point to the worst possible examples in the Bible that would make us all seem either evil, or incredibly gullible for believing such things.

It is being proven over and over that there is much more venom against 'infidels' being spewn in mosques in America and around the world than we would liked to have believed.

Unless you'd like to change your mind? LOL

ROFLOL! Even though it's really no laughing matter, sadly, it will be the muslims themselves that will eventually change yours.

Fact: We are at war with Islamic extremists who use the worst phrases in the Quran to justify their evil acts. Fact: Not ALL Muslims are extremists. Fact: The majority of Muslims within our own borders, and many abroad, wish to live in peace and harmony with the rest of us. Fact: We have some Muslim extremists in our own country who wish to attack us along with their terrorist cohorts from abroad. Fact: We must be diligent, and hunt down those that plot to murder us all. Fact: For those of us who are Christians, it is imperative that we continue to "live" what we preach. Hating or wishing ill upon an entire group of people because of the actions of some, goes against what God's Word teaches us. Fact: It is not helpful to create enemies by hating, and disrespecting our friends (Moderate Muslims).

I'm not going to debate each of your 'facts' right now but only because I don't have time. Nevertheless, take extreme caution in your choice of words when stating facts. Some of these you have made easy. lol. I'll be waiting with bated breath.

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