The killing of Theo van Gogh and the aftermath - Report by a Dutch guy

[teezle]

I have read several comments by FReepers about the slaugthering of Theo van Gogh and see a lot of half truths about it. Therefore I will write this short report from Utrecht (The Netherlands).

Theo van Gogh was a very famous film maker and columnist in The Netherlands. His movies were about several topics including a remake of Romeo and Julia with a Dutch girl and a Morrocan immigrant. He was a very generous guy as all his friends mentioned at the funeral and a good citizen (working for his son's sportclub). His other side was his fun in provoking people. He has provoked almost every well-known person in the Netherlands. For instance, there has been a lawsuit against him for commenting: "It smells like caramel, they must be burning the Jews with diabetes". He just loved to create conflicts.

He has been sacked as a columnist numerous times and the last few years he used the free newspaper in public traffic and his website www.degezonderoker.nl (thehealthysmoker) for his insults. Last years a lot of his insults were pointed against Muslims which he always mentioned as goatf*uckers. And yes, that is possible in the NL. I read an article about a NYT reporter who was thinking how he was going to translate that. I read in the NYT that he finally used "bestiality with a goat". :-)

Another person in the NL who is trying to start a discussion about Muslims and the Koran is Ayaan Hirsi Ali (House of Representatives for the liberal party). She is originally from Somalia and when she was told to marry a guy she fled to the NL. She asked Theo van Gogh to do a short film about Mulims women surpression and he did. Ayaan has been threatened so many times (she is someone who is not Muslim anymore, don't know the word for that) that she got police protection 24/7. Theo did not want protection.

Last week Theo van Gogh was cycling through Amsterdam and Mohammed B. shot him several times, slit his throat and than stabbed two knifes in him. One was sticking a letter to Ayaan Hirsi Ali to his body.

That night 20.000 people were making a lot of noise on the Dam (square) in Amsterdam to make a statement that this will not be tolerated. Also several Muslim demonstrations have been held after Tuesday. And a few rightwing extremist (neo nazis) were having demonstrations but these were aborted by the police.

A few more people were arrested in the aftermath and police are searching Mohammed B.'s religious teacher. They both had contact with Samir A., the guy who was arrested for planning attacks against the House of Rep.

Mohammed B. was raised in the NL and was a normal (read: moderate Muslim) until two years ago. He started visiting more radical mosques, got a beard and started wearing djelaba's. People around him say that he started becoming radical after his mother died of cancer. But when he got radical they lost contact.

Since Theo van Gogh was not a normal guy his friends organised a party the day before his funeral. They even had a corner with goats behind a fence with a sign above it: "For people that have the urge". :-)

Since last Tuesday a few attacks have been commited against Islamic schools and mosques. This ranged from small fires to thrown-in windows. Apart from two other attacks: A bomb attack at a Islamic school in Eindhoven and yesterday a fire that burned down a Islamic school in Uden. Also several churces have been under attack in recent days and yesterday night (I cannot believe it) the church in the village I grew up at (Boxmeer) was set on fire (small one though).

This morning I woke up and learned that the terrorism police squad tried to enter a house in The Hague and got a grenade thrown at them. Three police men were hurt. The police is trying to prevent the thing that happened in Madrid (exploding house when they entered) and are still waiting to enter the house. It is now even prohibited to fly over The Hague.

I can tell you guys this. Living in the Netherlands at this moment in time is very unreal. The song I keep having in my head this morning is "We gotta get out of this place.." I am starting to think more and more that we are on the edge of a major conflict within the NL (as some of you guys have been telling al along), but I am not ready to give up on the Muslim community in the Netherlands.

If it happens I probably have move to another country (perhaps to America like Theo van Gogh was going to do when his son finally got 18, is now 12 I believe). We'll see...

Btw. People were questioning my Dutch decent because of my English but I lived in England for half a year so that's why.

If anyone has any questions about the Netherlands or the situation as of now, please feel free to ask.

Best, Teezle

[hineybona]

there is a difference between being tolerant and being stupid ..Europe dosent know the difference yet..Look to OSAMA he SAID he will populate Europe and isolate America. He told us ALL , up front , what the plan is ..Keep it in mind my friend .

[bd476]

Very interesting read! Ping.

[teezle]

Thanks for the acknowledgements on my post.

I must say that most Dutch people see this is as the most recent and local cycle of the conflicts between the West and the East. I mention: Israeli conflict, US involvement in the M-East, 9-11, Iraq, beheadings.

I am still not willing to say that the Islam is the ONLY cause of this mess. I know quite some moderate Muslims that resent the fact that people are abusing Islam for their dispicable act.

As I said. Dutch people like to think in nuances... you will probably hate me for saying this but you cannot ignore the role of the West (most noticably the US) and its involvement in the M-East. Since this has been used to stir up Muslims.

In 800 the Arabic world was discussing how to interpret the Koran (was it really Gods word). It seems like the radicals have won that discussion but I hope that the moderates will prevail...

[Hun in the sun]

"there is a difference between being tolerant and being stupid "

I`m sure the Dutch know this.

[angkor]

My last trip to Amsterdam was summer 2001, when I almost had an altercation with a middle-Eastern dope seller who just couldn't take "No, I don't want it, go away" for an answer. He was quite belligerent that I didn't want his poison, and I finally had to stand up and stare him down before he left.

Wierd, have never had that experience anywhere else in the world, ever.

[teezle]

Thanks for your reply. As of now I and a lot of Dutch people are torn between the two opinions you mention. But as I said earlier I still hope moderate Muslims will prevail. They indeed have to start speaking up.

[gaspar]

Let's see. You have a million Muslims in the Netherlands, apparently 800,000 legals and some 200,000 illegals. And for years you have offered your nation as a safe-haven for Islamists of the Algerian AIM, HAMAS, and other radical organizations. They operated freely, espcially in Rotterdam and Eindhoven. Ayman al-Zawahiri is known to travel on a Dutch passport. The Islamist Al Muwafaq foundation was active in Breda, in southern Holland, and the operation's leaders included at least two members placed on the US Department of Treasury hit list of radical Islamists. In 1998 the Dutch BVD (intelligence agency) linked the Al Waqf Al Islami foundation active in Holland to exteme Islam and terrorist movements. In Eindhoven the foundation used the notorious Al Furqan mosque to collect for Al Qaeda and desseminate Wahhabi propaganda. Al Furqan was a home away from home for at least six members of the 9/11 terrorist group that attacked the USA. The Al Aqsa charity in the Hague was closed and its assets frozen. I could use more bandwidth to make the point that the Dutch people and their political leaders, and not necessarily the Dutch police, have been soft on Muslim terrorists operating in Holland. But then you already know that. And you also know it is almost to late to reverse course in what most observers of interntional terrorism consider a bovine nation.

[gaspar]

Let's see. You have a million Muslims in the Netherlands, apparently 800,000 legals and some 200,000 illegals. And for years you have offered your nation as a safe-haven for Islamists of the Algerian AIM, HAMAS, and other radical organizations. They operated freely, espcially in Rotterdam and Eindhoven. Ayman al-Zawahiri is known to travel on a Dutch passport. The Islamist Al Muwafaq foundation was active in Breda, in southern Holland, and the operation's leaders included at least two members placed on the US Department of Treasury hit list of radical Islamists. In 1998 the Dutch BVD (intelligence agency) linked the Al Waqf Al Islami foundation active in Holland to exteme Islam and terrorist movements. In Eindhoven the foundation used the notorious Al Furqan mosque to collect for Al Qaeda and desseminate Wahhabi propaganda. Al Furqan was a home away from home for at least six members of the 9/11 terrorist group that attacked the USA. The Al Aqsa charity in the Hague was closed and its assets frozen. I could use more bandwidth to make the point that the Dutch people and their political leaders, and not necessarily the Dutch police, have been soft on Muslim terrorists operating in Holland. But then you already know that. And you also know it is almost too late to reverse course in what most observers of interntional terrorism consider a bovine nation.

[libs_kma]

In context of this article, yes you are right. I was indeed mixing the action and reaction in the Netherlands with the deafening silence of the Muslims in America.

[teezle]

Thanks for your reply. If there was now Muslim reaction in the US after 9-11 that is a truly sad thing.

In NL every group has its own organisation and spokesman. Like "Morrocan Neighbourhood Fathers The Hague" to give an example. These organisations condemn the attack and say they want to live in a country in which people debate about matters (like the insults of Theo van Gogh). They are offended by the abuse of Islam.

[hineybona]

If you look at post #42 you might be wrong .

[teezle]

It seems to me from my travels that the major problems are with many young, unassimilated Muslims who are very hostile to everyone non-Muslim and to western culture. In France, they pose a real threat to public order, in contrast to their elders who immigrated from Algeria, quietly practiced Islam, fit into society and often were very successful in business. A friend in Belgium told me that life in parts of his country is unbearable; Moroccan gangs exist even in the smallest villages and the population of radical young Muslims is exploding.

I think what you are saying is the big problem indeed. In Holland there are no problems with Turkish Muslims. There are problems with Morrocan young Muslims who are dettached from Dutch culture and start reading Islam as the true word, totally detached from culture. Olivier Roy (French Arabist) argues that this is the real problem we are facing today in Europe.

[backhoe]

I neglected to welcome you- so, welcome to Free Republic. I'm about one-third Dutch, mixed with Brit & German- a legacy of my family's seafaring days.

Just to add a little more perspective?

 Mystery surrounds those who jumped (From the Towers) 

 Neil Cavuto said today that we NEED to see the horrifying results from the towers. To put a warning up for everyone to decide, but we need to see the horror.

Seeing is believing........and not seeing, one can only wonder. If all the photos were put to the public, then we would REALLY be damn mad!

 
 A good friend of mine who lives on Pearl St., a few blocks from the Towers said the biggest mistake he ever made in his life was looking through binoculars...seeing their faces.
To Hell with Osama and his ghouls.

 
 

Pictures- not for the weak:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1213429/posts?page=135#135

 

 Does anyone have links to ORIGINAL September 11, 2001 Free Republic Threads?

 Mystery surrounds those who jumped (From the Towers) 

 Neil Cavuto said today that we NEED to see the horrifying results from the towers. To put a warning up for everyone to decide, but we need to see the horror.

Seeing is believing........and not seeing, one can only wonder. If all the photos were put to the public, then we would REALLY be damn mad!

 
 A good friend of mine who lives on Pearl St., a few blocks from the Towers said the biggest mistake he ever made in his life was looking through binoculars...seeing their faces.
To Hell with Osama and his ghouls.

 
 

Pictures- not for the weak:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1213429/posts?page=135#135

 

 Does anyone have links to ORIGINAL September 11, 2001 Free Republic Threads?

[Ginifer]

I visited Holland for a week and the people were wonderful...friendly, open, kind, and very generous. I'm sorry for what has happened to your country. I have always recommended people visit your country, but now I am not so sure with all the stuff going on over there.

[EaglesUpForever]

Thanks!

It is about time we called a goatf*ucker a goatf*ucker! Islam isn't a religion, it's a cult for permanent adolescents that are sexually depraved because their "culture" treats women like dirt. No wonder they turn to goats...

[Truth666]

They don't use always the same tactic. Belgium, November 9, 2004 :
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1275840/posts

In Holland Pim Fortuyn went from 0 to 33% in one year, after having gathered the most votes in the Rotterdam elections.
They murdered Pim Fortuyn, five days before he would participate for the first time in the national elections.
Two and a half years later they are so afraid of Pim Fortuyn, that directing a film about him (Theo Van Gogh) is enough to be sentenced to death.
In the case of Pim Fortuyn a green activist in defense of animal rights was used to cover-up the murder.
In the case of Van Gogh they don't have to use this kind of fantasy : the muslim suspect is just a good reason to provide protection to mosques 24 hours a day with police. The protection that was denied to Van Gogh.

[hineybona]

agree

[jb6]

Mohammed B. was raised in the NL and was a normal (read: moderate Muslim) until two years ago.

Read: No such thing, like elves, unicorns and big mice in red shorts.

Instead of fleeing your country and giving it up to Islam, fight for your land. Find Christ, work to convert your muslims and fight for the defense of the land of your ancestors, instead of running from the threat. Do you think the Muslims won't follow you to America? Where will you run once this will soon start in America? There is no place to run, they are everywhere, either stand or fight or convert (and then you'll still have to fight, just for them.)

[libs_kma]

"...you will probably hate me for saying this but you cannot ignore the role of the West (most noticably the US) and its involvement in the M-East. Since this has been used to stir up Muslims."

Sir, do you see the folly of this statement?

If the US stirs up the Muslims in the M-East, and that causes a problem in the NL, then what is the best course of action? That Muslims are never "stirred up" anywhere in the world so as not to cause a problem anywhere else in the world? And if that is the nuanced thinking of the rest of Europe as well, then where does it end?

[angkor]

the Dutch people and their political leaders, and not necessarily the Dutch police, have been soft on Muslim terrorists operating in Holland

Bring it home gaspar.

Wahabbi mosques continue to operate all over America.

I can point for example to Dar al Hijra in Falls Church, VA, which was financed by the Saudis and has been host to a rogues gallery of Islamists over the years (e.g., 9/11 hijackers made contacts there; San Diego imam to 9/11 hijackers turned up as a preacher there; OBL's brother was a member; OBL's banker is/was on the board; etc).

The Wahabbi Islamist influence extends to probably 80 percent of mosques in America, because that's what the Saudis demand in return for their financing.

Yes, America has made somewhat (not much) more headway against terrorist infiltration than the Dutch, but that's only because we had our 9/11 three years ago, whereas the Dutch had theirs only last week.