Playing for all Elgin Marbles

With the Olympic Games soon to open in Athens, one of the more bitter rivalries in history is set to resume, and it doesn't involve parallel bars or water polo. The Greek government is spending tens of millions of dollars on a museum atop the Acropolis in hopes that Britain will choose this occasion to return the Elgin Marbles, the elaborate sets of sculptures pried off the Parthenon and shipped to London two centuries ago. The British, unsurprisingly, have not complied.

To understand why the sculptures mean so much to both sides and why the dispute is so difficult to resolve, one must look back over the ages, and consider the woman who started it all.

Appointed Great Britain's ambassador extraordinary to Constantinople in 1799, Thomas Bruce, the seventh Earl of Elgin and 11th Earl of Kincardine, asked the British government if it would subsidize a project to draw and make molds of antiquities on the Acropolis to help educate artists and the public in England (Greece was then controlled by the Ottoman Empire). The answer was no. He left for the Orient with his brand new, and very rich, bride, Mary Nisbet, whose own money would support the venture.

Elgin hired the Italian artist Giovanni Battista Lusieri to oversee the project, and in Turkey he obtained a "firman," an official document signed by Sultan Selim III, authorizing the work to begin. Removing the sculptures was not Elgin's original plan. But he was occupied with his duties in Constantinople, and delegated the job at the Acropolis to the Rev. Philip Hunt, his chaplain and on-site archaeologist. Hunt, in his enthusiasm to compete on Elgin's behalf with other Europeans dragging home chunks of ruins as souvenirs, went to Constantinople seeking a more generous firman. He got it and, in July 1801, returned to Athens.

Later that summer, the British Army drove the French from Alexandria, recovering Egyptian territory for the Ottomans. The sultan, grateful to the English and wildly attracted to the glamorous Lady Elgin, honored the couple with extravagant trinkets and a permanent embassy at his own expense. Lady Elgin was even invited to Topkapi Palace to meet the power behind the throne -- the sultan's mother, or Valida Sultana -- becoming the first Westerner invited to witness the opulence and mystery of the fabled harem. The Valida Sultana's personal portfolio included the Acropolis -- which, at that time, the Turks considered a slum.

In the spring of 1802, the Elgins finally got to Athens. Lady Elgin, pregnant with her third child, stayed to supervise her husband's project while he went island-hopping. The first two firmans had already been passed on to local authorities, and Lady Elgin had subsequent firmans that authorized the sculptures' removal.

She wrote to her husband that she "told Lusieri of the firmans, he says nothing can be going on better than everything, so for the present I shall lock them up." She even wrapped some of the marbles for shipping herself, and persuaded two British Navy captains to disobey Lord Nelson's orders and transport the cases to England.

Things went sour pretty quickly. In the winter of 1805-06, the British government began a 10-year wrangle over the marbles. Elgin was then a prisoner of war in France and Mary, in London, received a visit from officials who offered to take the marbles off her hands. She wrote him, "I desire them to make their offer, that it is impossible for me to fix any sum -- I shall see what is said, it is always well to have that in one's power."

Two years later, Lord Elgin divorced his wife in two scandalous trials and an act of Parliament, bringing notoriety to them both. Mary lost custody of her children, and Lord Elgin lost access to his wife's fortune, forcing him to sell the marbles. Appraisals ranged from 25,000 pounds from detractors to estimates as high as 100,000 pounds by the papal envoy, the sculptor Antonio Canova. (The average laborer then earned about 7 pounds a year).

Crown Prince Ludwig of Bavaria was reported to have given Lord Elgin a blank check. He asserted that gathering and shipping home the collection had cost him (or, more accurately, his wife) nearly 75,000 pounds, or what in today's money would be equal to the purchasing power of about $4 million.

In 1816, the British government offered Elgin, then hugely in debt, 35,000 pounds -- 18,000 pounds of it paid directly from the government to a creditor, and the balance earmarked for other creditors. Had he sold the collection abroad, he could have avoided his creditors, but he was intensely patriotic and refused to instigate a bidding war. He received neither profit nor fair value, yet for 200 years he has been denigrated as a crass commercialist.

Elgin's reputation aside, several contemporary legal scholars make a strong argument for the Greek side in the current debate. David Rudenstine, the dean of the Benjamin N. Cardozo School of Law, has forcefully argued that the 1816 parliamentary proceedings that affirmed the government's purchase from Lord Elgin were tainted and incomplete.

According to Rudenstine, the July 1801 firman, which was not even produced at those hearings and has been publicly seen only in an Italian translation without the signature or seal of the sultan, did not give Elgin the authority to remove sculptures from the Parthenon walls, only to excavate.

But by 1816, the sale was a foregone conclusion, and both the government and Elgin may well have been sloppy with evidence that wasn't going to change the outcome.

Until international law or diplomacy changes things, that verdict will stand, and the British Museum will keep the marbles.

As for the former Lady Elgin, she didn't even testify in 1816, and the content of the other firmans was never revealed. She was at her castle in Scotland enjoying the ancient gymnasiarch's chair -- the chair Olympic judges sat on during the competition -- which had been presented to her parents by the Greek Orthodox archbishop in her honor.

Nagel is the author of the forthcoming "Mistress of the Elgin Marbles : A Biography of Mary Nisbet, Countess of Elgin."

found this in an AltaVista search (Google was down).

Hillary Wants Britain to Return Elgin Marbles
urged Britain Tuesday to return the controversial Elgin marbles to Greece, saying it was a wish she ... saved the marbles from the ravages that damaged other Acropolis monuments.

That's an old style FR url, so it must be at least 2 1/2 years old (before my time) and I've not checked the link.

The marbles were showing their age when Elgin got 'em, but had their original paint on them when acquired. Marble sculpture in antiquity were almost always painted, essentially like lawn dwarfs are today. The British (and pretty much everyone else) used to remove all that vintage paint that had managed to cling to surviving ancient sculpture, I suppose because it made them "look better". And look white, of course.

The marbles were damaged while in the possession of the British Museum. There was a scandal about that a few years when the memoranda were leaked. Sandblasting I think it was.

The sculpture was legally obtained, and if the BM returned it to Greece, it would be a gift, or have to be purchased. The Greek gov't even abased itself and asked that they be loaned for display. No results yet. I don't have an opinion whether they should be returned or not.

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The sculpture was legally obtained,

Ah, no they weren't. Read the British report of 1816. Hillary's view on the marbles is irrelevant. Greece was not a independent country when the marbles were stolen.

The marbles were showing their age when Elgin got 'em,

That's wrong. Elgin hacked them into pieces to fix into the crates. Elgin had to destroy them to bring them into England. PLEASE GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT ......

They were stolen by a Brit, who was censured by the British Government for his actions ... Read previous posts of mine ... do facts not mean anything to you?

If this Byzantine Emperor saved them from certain destruction then I think the Brits would say fair enough, we lost our right to be custodians of them. Doesn't matter what the nationality of the emperor was. It's very rare that England has been ruled by an English monarch, from William the Conqueror, and ever since (James I through William of Orange and the Hanoverians).

Those foreigners were part of our island story. Tell you what, we'll give our marbles back when you return your statue of liberty to the french.

Tell you what, we'll give our marbles back when you return your statue of liberty to the french.

Well that's the difference -- the Statue of Liberty was a gift by the French government, not by say, the Vichy govt under duress from Nazi Germany.

Just as Jewish treasures robbed by the Nazis ahd to be returned, the Elgin marbles should be returned to Greece.

On another note -- you are quite right that Britain has had quite a variety of foreign kings -- the House of Normandy was French as were the Plantagenets. The Tudors were more English until they were replaced by the Scottish Stuarts and THEY were replaced by the Dutch William IIIrd and the German Hanoverians. THe present Queen and her consort seem to have more German relatives than English

Why is it that some Americans take every opportunity to do the Brits down, while we slavishly follow you into every foreign adventure?

Because Michael Caine makes a good villain and a British accent makes for a classy villain as opposed to a grunt (a German accent) or a wimp (a French accent) ;-P

BTW, I do like England a lot -- am typing this from Brighton -- they do have some murky periods in their past but are a jolly friendly bunch of folks

And with regards to your the Brits have made a lot of money out of them too:

Let me point out how the British Museum was created and is run.

When royal museums showing displays to the selected few were all the rage, the British parliament created the British Museum in 1753. For the people. For the benefit of citizens, not the crown. Incredible for the time. To ensure its safeguard, parliament also introduced for the first time the idea of a trust, ensuring that the proprietors of the museum made no financial gain or profit from the museum whatsoever.

The trustees were ordered in the founding charter to act not in the best interests of the state but of beneficiaries present and future. Such a notion was unprecedented. And who were these beneficiaries? "Learned and studious men, both native and foreign."

I get sick of the bile heaped on the British Mueseum. It is a wonderful institution that has preserved so much of antiquity for posterity. Why should it be rewarded by being forced to give up its crown jewels.

And if OUR MARBLES go, then what of the Rosetta stone of the Benin Friezes? The Cyrus Cylinder?

As for the marbles, I think the Ottomans had a right in giving them to the Brits. The marbles were built with the proceeds of a forced tribute collected partly from areas in modern-day Turkey...

BRAVO!

The Greeks really have NO claim on the Elgin Marbles.The Ottomans ruled Greece,when Lord Elgin got them.

If the wonderful British Museum were forced to give back the Marbles,what would be next and what Museums,All over the world,would be emptied by other nations? This is a precedence that must NEVER be allowed.

Yes, and if the Chinese make a grab on Washington and take the Declaration of Independence to be displayed in the Beijing museum, they must be allowed to do so -- one must not set the precedence of returning stolen goods. Otherwise it would be like those Jewish people telling the German government to return items stolen from the Jewish people. Shocking..... </sarcasm

How could he leave them outside for 16 years, when he didn't even own them for 16 years?

He stole them. He was in possession of them. He spent 16 years trying to sell them to the British Government, hence being outside, hence being censured by the British Government, hence the report of 1816 which determined that the marbles came into Elgin's possession by theft, ... but the British decided to "buy" them (actually they were partially compensating Elgin's travel expenses). He wanted 90,000 pounds, he got 35,000 pounds. The British Government saw themselves as "caretakers" of the marbles, because technically, there was no "Greece". It was occupied by Turkey. Then the war of liberation, Lord Byron's death (Byron saved the Greek harbor of Missilonghi), -- to the present day-- British refusal to return to the Greeks property which they admitted in their original report was stolen and would be returned.

I say they should be cut in half and allow half to stay in England and half go to Greece.

Is this in addition to the other cuts that the marbles received? Elgin had to hack the marbles up, in order to put them into crates. If you want to get an idea of how the marbles were hacked up, do any kind of google search. Here's a good url to start. (I won't link to it, hi-res pictures.)

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://rubens.anu.edu.au/htdocs/bycountry/england/london/museums/british_museum/sculpture/greece/elgin_marbles/frieze/35.JPG&imgrefurl=http://rubens.anu.edu.au/htdocs/bycountry/england/london/museums/british_museum/sculpture/greece/elgin_marbles/frieze/index1.html&h=1024&w=1280&sz=267&tbnid=6qxoAr-KqJ4J:&tbnh=120&tbnw=150&start=64&prev=/images%3Fq%3Delgin%2Bmarbles%26start%3D60%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26sa%3DN

Complete your analogy. If a renegade Chinaman steals the Declaration of Independence while the United States is occupied by another country, sells it to the Chinese Government and the Chinese at the time issue a report that they recognize that the Declaration is stolen property and will assumed guardianship of it, until such time as the it can be returned ...

Why is it that some Americans take every opportunity to do the Brits down, while we slavishly follow you into every foreign adventure?

Hey, I love the Brits. But your mistaken on this issue. I grew up in Australia, live in England for while, once sang for the Queen. Just because I make a statement where I believe the Brits are wrong on one issue, doesn't mean I think they're wrong on everything. (That's a smidge excessive.) Hey, your own Lord Byron was appalled at the acquisition of the marbles and wanted their return to Greece. Read his Curse of Minerva.

The British Government saw themselves as "caretakers" of the marbles, because technically, there was no "Greece". It was occupied by Turkey

Errr... Mrs Peel, now you state that the British were caretakers of the marbles. So, I take it, they then have the right to hold them until they are convinced the Greek government can adequately take care of the marbles?

I wrote: "The British Government saw themselves as "caretakers" of the marbles

Past tense. At the time, 1816, they saw themselves as "caretakers" of the marbles. I never said that they are caretakers of the marbles. As one can really question the kind of "care" that the marbles have received.

The marbles are different, and have been singled out with special reports and recommendations since 1816. Pretty much every British Government since 1816 has promised to return the marbles -- and just the marbles to Greece -- including the current British Government. Yet nothing happens.

From a classics standpoint, its a real tragedy -- the complete temple - the Parthenon -- is incomplete-- in Greece its just a building -- in London -- the friezes are at eye level (not their original placement) and displayed totally out of context.

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Dispute between Greece, England resumes with Olympics Games