Posted on 06/13/2004 10:24:43 PM PDT by goldstategop
Vox Day
Is marriage worth it?
A reader, who happens to be a single man of marriageable age, wrote in to ask me a simple question: "Does anyone out there feel that marriage is worth it?"
After some reflection, I decided to answer him thusly: A marriage to the right person is worth it. A marriage to the wrong person is not. How does one decide who the right person is? Aye, there's the rub ...
This is not to say that one cannot determine who the right person is, only that it requires a certain amount of analytical detachment about the relationship that is difficult for most people. Some of the more important factors for a man to consider, in my opinion, are as follows:
1. Is she a woman of genuine faith? A woman who seriously believes that marriage is a sacrament – be she Christian, Jew or Muslim – will have a very different view of the institution and the commitment she is making than will a secular or casually religious woman. As for irreligious men, I see no purpose in marrying whatsoever – why put oneself at serious risk for a sacrament in which one does not believe? If you're marrying her simply because she demands it, don't be surprised when you're forced to accede to other, even less palatable demands, like a divorce.
2. Does she accept the notion of personal responsibility? A woman who is constantly blaming others for her problems in life will soon begin to see her husband as the source of all her problems. These women always blame whoever they are around the most instead of themselves – if she's constantly complaining about her coworkers or her family, don't even continue to date her. If you do, soon enough you'll discover that she has a new target at which to aim her barbs.
3. Are you comfortable with her? Passion is no substitute for genuine compatibility. Hot sex is delightful, but there is the other 99 percent of the time to consider, too. If you and your potential wife are not capable of several hours in the same room together without talking or otherwise interacting directly, you may not be comfortable enough with one another.
4. Can she entertain herself? Men need their downtime. This becomes problematic if she sees your free time as a violation of her time with you.
5. Does she genuinely put the interests of others first? I love a beautiful, self-centered drama queen as much or more than the next guy, but I would never want to marry one. They're fun to watch ... from a distance. Keep your distance.
6. Do your friends and family think she's good for you? Those around you are not likely to be blinded by the rose-tinted lenses of infatuation and will often have a better read on her true personality than you do. If you find yourself defending her by saying things like "Oh, but you just don't know her," then you are flirting with long-term trouble.
7. Does she attempt to control you? This tendency will only get worse with marriage, so any sign of this in a dating relationship is a red flag. Women have a strong maternal instinct and have a hard time grasping that most men loathe being mothered – can she back off when you tell her to?
8. Does she treat you with respect, in public and in private? If she does, this is an excellent sign. If she's always putting you down, just "giving you a hard time" and "keeping you in your place," better find someone else. Marriage is not a buddy-cop movie.
9. Are you in agreement on the larger issues? If she wants kids and you don't, forget it. If she wants to keep up with the Joneses and you want to save for the future, there is a seed of much future conflict already embedded in the relationship.
10. Finally, do you know her? Really, truly know her? Do you know what she hopes her future will hold, even if she can't articulate it?
Marriage and family are definitely good things. But they are important and life-altering, and are not to be entered into lightly. If you are so fortunate as to find the right woman, don't let shallow concerns get in the way, pursue her and see it through. If neither you nor those close to you harbor any serious doubts about her, then marriage is likely the right decision.
The idea that just because a couple doesn't believe in your God means they can't make a commitment or have a sense of obligation is just so wrong on so many levels.
It should be what you feel for each other that gives you your sense of obligation and commitment not the other way around. If it were the other way around we might as well bring back arranged marriages.
And again the statistics don't back up your claim, If what you were saying were true in that a marriage between people with no religion "will not last" the divorce rate would be like 90+% among people who have no religion instead of it being around everybody else's. In case you didn't realize people have long marriages in China and Russia and people got married and stayed together long before Christianity and I'm sure they will long after it is gone.
It takes two people for marriage. I think you'll find that in any divorce where one has a belief in the responsibilities entailed in marriage and one that has no such belief, it's usually latter that initiates the divorce. The number given are say nothing about this. If the husband gets a divorce, the wife must also get a divorce (and vice versa), even if she didn't want it. One problems today is that two people may not be particularly religious at the time the get married. Later on, one of them does become more committed, perhaps in part because the marriage itself is not going to smoothly and doesn't satisfy him/her. The reverse may also be true. Two religious people get married. One changes. Divorce.
Not at all, if you go to the link and go to page 25 there is a table "Switched in / Switched out". From 1990-2001 a lot more people over 18 (Net 5.5 Million) have abandoned religion than found it, Yet the divorce rate has remained constant over this time period. If what you are saying were true than the divorce rate should have skyrocketed.
Sorry but no matter how much you wish it were true, Relgiousness doesn't corolate with the divorce rate or any other morals in general.
>>People do change after being married.<<
I've always heard that men complain that she changes after marriage, while women complain that he doesn't!
Of those in the 'NO RELIGION' group, only 19 percent were married, compared to over 50 percent in every other case (except non-denominational, Buddhist, and Muslim). What's interesting is that the number of divorces is still similar for the NO RELIGION group even though the percent married rate is much lower. Notice this is NOT the percentage of marriages ending in divorce. This is the percentage of all people in that group identifying themselves as divorced. Despite the low percentage married, this number is still similar to other groups. It's common sense that people who don't get married don't get divorced. Normalizing the divorce rate would give a number closer to 20 or 25 percent.
%Married........
NO RELIGION 19
NON-DENOMINATIONAL 27
CATHOLIC 60
BAPTIST 58
METHODIST 64
LUTHERAN 68
%Single/Co-habiting
NO RELIGION 22
NON-DENOMINATIONAL 19
CATHOLIC 5
BAPTIST 5
METHODIST 3
LUTHERAN 4
%Divorced/Separated
NO RELIGION 9
NON-DENOMINATIONAL 9
CATHOLIC 9
BAPTIST 12
METHODIST 9
LUTHERAN 7
The degree of co-habitation as opposed to actual marriage suggests an aversion to commitment. The number of breakups is not included in the divorce/separation statistics. It also would have been interesting to see the number of unwed mothers in each group.
Not at all, if you go to the link and go to page 25 there is a table "Switched in / Switched out". From 1990-2001 a lot more people over 18 (Net 5.5 Million) have abandoned religion than found it, Yet the divorce rate has remained constant over this time period. If what you are saying were true than the divorce rate should have skyrocketed.
You talk about 5,000,000 people out of 213,000,000. That's less that 1 percent; negligible. Certainly there is a shift in self-identification toward more secular categorization. That was the main point of the survey and no one has said otherwise. As to the divorce rate skyrocketing see above.
The idea that just because a couple doesn't believe in your God means they can't make a commitment or have a sense of obligation is just so wrong on so many levels.
I never said it was necessary to believe in 'my God', which is a ridiculous thing to say considering you don't even know what 'my God' is. You're setting up a straw man here. No one made this claim. The fact remains that if all you have are personal feelings for each other and no sense of commitment beyond that, the marriage won't last. Perhaps it makes you feel better to believe otherwise.
It should be what you feel for each other that gives you your sense of obligation and commitment not the other way around.
Which is the point. What two people feel for each other changes over time. If 'what you feel for each other' is the basis for any obligation and commitment, then that sense of obligation or commitment will disappear along with the feelings.
Of those in the 'NO RELIGION' group, only 19 percent were married, compared to over 50 percent in every other case (except non-denominational, Buddhist, and Muslim). What's interesting is that the number of divorces is still similar for the NO RELIGION group even though the percent married rate is much lower. Notice this is NOT the percentage of marriages ending in divorce. This is the percentage of all people in that group identifying themselves as divorced. Despite the low percentage married, this number is still similar to other groups. It's common sense that people who don't get married don't get divorced. Normalizing the divorce rate would give a number closer to 20 or 25 percent.
The degree of co-habitation as opposed to actual marriage suggests an aversion to commitment. The number of breakups is not included in the divorce/separation statistics.
OK, I admit I made a mistake
However if you go down to page 32 which is the % age of the groups,
| Percent 18-29 | Percent 65+ |
| Catholic 24 Baptist 21 No Religion 35 Christian 35 Methodist 12 Lutheran 15 Presbyterian 10 Protestant 13 Pentecostal 24 Episcopalian/Anglican 10 Jewish 14 Mormon 29 Churches of Christ 17 Non-denominational 23 Congregational/UCC 11 Jehovah's Witnesses 24 Assemblies of God 21 Muslim/Islamic 58 Buddhist 56 Evangelical/Born Again 19 Church of God 16 Seventh Day Adventist 10 |
Catholic 13 Baptist 16 No Religion 8 Christian 7 Methodist 27 Lutheran 22 Presbyterian 29 Protestant 30 Pentecostal 9 Episcopalian/Anglican 28 Jewish 28 Mormon 15 Churches of Christ 25 Non-denominational 12 Congregational/UCC 35 Jehovah's Witnesses 10 Assemblies of God 10 Muslim/Islamic <1 Buddhist 3 Evangelical/Born Again 9 Church of God 19 Seventh Day Adventist 26 |
The No Religion (and the CINOs) have a much higher percentage of young people than the other groups (2-3x in some cases) so you would expect the unmarried and cohabitation rates to be much higher as they are for all younger people of all groups. And on the flip side you have 1/2 - 1/3 the number of people over 65 as other groups so the No Religion category as higher percentage of Baby Boomers than the others and that generation high divorce rate.
If they were to show the % divorced by age the % would pretty much come down to the other groups.
Backing up that religiousness doesn't correlate with divorce rate are the divorce rates from around the world. Many countries that are by far more secular than the United States like Canada, China, Denmark, England, Norway, Russia and they have a much lower divorce rate.
It also would have been interesting to see the number of unwed mothers in each group.
It would, But again religiousness wouldn't have anything to do with it because even though young people are becoming much more secular (the ones that would be having the out of wedlock births) than in the the past the rates have been declining rapidly. If religion had anything to do with it as the young people became more secular the opposite would be happening and the rates would be increasing rapidly. Source http://www.cdc.gov/od/oc/media/pressrel/fs031031.htm
Not at all, if you go to the link and go to page 25 there is a table "Switched in / Switched out". From 1990-2001 a lot more people over 18 (Net 5.5 Million) have abandoned religion than found it, Yet the divorce rate has remained constant over this time period. If what you are saying were true than the divorce rate should have skyrocketed.
You talk about 5,000,000 people out of 213,000,000. That's less that 1 percent; negligible.
That's a lot more than anyone else
Certainly there is a shift in self-identification toward more secular categorization. That was the main point of the survey and no one has said otherwise.
Well that's the way the study turned out, I don't think they set out to show people are becoming more secular. Over 50,000 surveyed with a margin of error of 0.5% - I would hardly call it a Zogby push poll. If anything it leans toward Christianity because Alaska and Hawaii aren't included.
The idea that just because a couple doesn't believe in your God means they can't make a commitment or have a sense of obligation is just so wrong on so many levels.
I never said it was necessary to believe in 'my God', which is a ridiculous thing to say considering you don't even know what 'my God' is. You're setting up a straw man here. No one made this claim.
Your God is the one that you think because you believe in him somehow makes you morally superior than people who don't.
The fact remains that if all you have are personal feelings for each other and no sense of commitment beyond that, the marriage won't last.
No they don't, Even if we forget the adjustments and the Non-Religious do in fact have a higher divorce rate than the religious, The vast majority of them are still staying together. Even if we take the 19/9 number at face value that's still big 70% majority who apparently "get by" with just personal feelings instead of some obligation or sense of commitment to some third party.
Perhaps it makes you feel better to believe otherwise. Which is the point. What two people feel for each other changes over time. If 'what you feel for each other' is the basis for any obligation and commitment, then that sense of obligation or commitment will disappear along with the feelings.
Yeah call me an idealist that I believe in true love that people can love and cherish each other until they die instead of your version were you love each other at first then just tolerate each other's company because you feel you have an obligation. I think I will stick with the Nonreligious because there sounds like there is a lot of loveless marriages in the Christian community.
Your local Catholics will disagree with you on that one. It is one of the seven sacraments...and with 65 million of 'em in the country, chances are you know a couple. Ask them about it.
And my two cents? I'm not married, and never will be as long as this culture allows feminazis any respect, permits shady judges to 'reallocate' 50% of a man's wealth, facilitates the 'placement' of children as far from the father as possible on the whims of the psycho ex-wife, and freely encourages women to shun cooking and cleaning for a day at the office. Man, I am SO glad that I haven't fallen into that trap!
Self-ping for later... me sleepy now.
It's nice to see a guy admit to this. The problem is, while he says he wouldn't marry that type, many men do,(including, I suspect, some Freeper men). Then these men are "shocked" to discover that Miss Drama Queen is a nightmare to live with. But, he'd rather noten admit his mistake,so, he joins the He-Man-Woman-Haters club, says "all women are bad".
We women have our version of this: Our attraction to ""the bad boy"(yes ladies, you know this is true) ". But, if a woman marries a bad boy she is "shocked" to discover that he is just plain bad. Then she complains that "all men are bad".
While this is a good article, and the advice given can be used by both men and wome, I would change number 8 to number 1. My advice to both guys and gals who are with someone who is treating them with disrespect, is to RUN. Get out of there and don't look back. Mutual respect is The Key ingredient to a successful relationship. It comes first, even before faith. If you don't have respect for each other, you have nothing. It's only going down hill from there.
Marriage is not a sacrament because God does not use it to offer forgiveness of sins.
Go back and re-read my statement, please and take it in context.
I'm glad my husband didn't go with the friends and family opinion. His sister had his whole life planned out and was disappointed that I came along and ruined her vision. (plus, I looked exactly like someone she knew in high school, so that also colored her viewpoint). Since my husband and I only knew each other for three months when he married (by choice, not necessity) his family didn't really take the time to get to know me (after 11 years they still don't). His friends were just disappointed that he didn't wait until after college so they could have the bachelor party they thought he should have. All in all, we weren't supposed to last. It's now been 11 years, 6 months, and 17 days since we got married.
You misspelled "noose".
I thinking more and more about staying out of the institution....
Please add me to your X-er ping list.
Mine sure is:)
I waited until I was 37 to marry. I knew by then what I wanted and needed out of a relationship. I found the man of my dreams in a very unlikely package. He's 20 years older than I. And girls, let me tell you, an older man is the way to go!
We also both work and consider our incomes "pooled" rather than "hers" or "his". It all goes in the same pot and we both have veto power over how it is spent. I think this is an important point as many couple end up dissolving their marriages over "money" differences.
"I've always heard that men complain that she changes after marriage, while women complain that he doesn't!"
It's been said that when a woman selects her mate, she bases her selection on "what he could be". If her expectations are not met they may have a little problem.
When a man selects his mate, he bases his selection on "what she appears to be ". If she changes from the woman he fell in love with, they too may have a little problem.
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