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Creationism vs. evolution debate to be topic of two-day Clarksb
Clarksburg ^ | May 17 2004 | Kim Mines

Posted on 05/17/2004 10:46:51 AM PDT by yonif

CLARKSBURG -- Was the earth really created in six days? What happened to the dinosaurs? Where do fossils come from?

According to Ken Ham, president and founder of Answers in Genesis, the answers are all found in the first book of the Bible, Genesis.

Ham will be speaking at the Answers in Genesis conference May 21-22 at Robert C. Byrd High School.

"It is a blessing for the Christian community to have such a world-renowned speaker come to our area," said Jay Wolfe, chairman for the event. "The best part is that it's free. Typically, it costs $35 per family."

Ham, a native Australian who now resides near Cincinnati, is one of the most in-demand Christian speakers in North America. He is the author of numerous books on Genesis, the accuracy and authority of the Bible, and creationism vs. evolution.

His radio show, "Answers with Ken Ham," is heard on 680 stations worldwide. He is also a contributing author for Creation magazine. A former teacher, Ham is concerned with how education teaches the theory of evolution as fact and how the whole scientific aspect of the Bible is being ignored.

Others from Answers in Genesis participating in the conference are Buddy Davis, Michael Oard and Stacia McKeever.

Davis is a dinosaur sculptor, author/speaker and popular musician. He is also an accomplished paleo-artist, specializing in building life-sized dinosaur sculptures for Answers in Genesis's Creation Museum near Cincinnati.

He will sing selections from his eight CDs.

An expert on Noah's Flood, the Ice Age and Mammoths, Oard recently retired from the National Weather Service as a meteorologist. He'll give illustrated talks on the compelling evidence for Noah's Flood and the Ice Age that resulted, and how the woolly mammoth connects to biblical history.

He is also author of a children's book, "Life in the Great Ice Age," and a book for teens and adults, "The Weather Book."

McKeever is an author and children's speaker. She'll lead workshops for ages 4-6 using a variety of hands-on activities, taking children on a journey through the "7Cs of History."

She graduated summa cum laude in biology and psychology, and has been working full-time for Answers in Genesis (USA) since 1997. She is also a co-author of the Answers for Kids section in Creation magazine, and has written or co-authored a number of articles for that magazine and also for the AiG Web site.

Local church pastors and lay leaders are excited about the conference.

In March, Ham spoke to a standing-room-only crowd at a breakfast/planning meeting held at the Holiday Inn in Bridgeport. At that time, the planning committee and local church leaders set out to raise enough money to bring the conference to Clarksburg at no cost to the community.

"We have raised over $14,000 so we can offer it to the community for free," Wolfe said.

Wolfe added that he felt it was important for everyone to attend the conference.

"There are two world views -- God is or God isn't -- creation or evolution," Wolfe said. "Which one is the predominant world view, espoused by most information media?"

He added that the church must take responsibility for allowing the creation world view to be defeated in our culture. It is time, he said, to "equip ourselves with the sword of the spirit, which is the truth of God's word, and enter the science arena to battle for the hearts and minds of the young people of this generation."

Wolfe said that he realizes that the creation world view is controversial.

"Some will be skeptical," he said. "But the people who are still open-minded even though they now believe in evolution can come out and hear a specialist. They can then analyze for themselves the creation point of view."

Rev. David Hulme of Clarksburg Baptist Church said that hearing Ham speak and reading his books has radically changed the way he looks at some issues facing the church and society.

"I have his book and DVD series, and we've watched it at church," he said. "There seems to be a lot of interest. I think it's because he uses the whole of scripture, not just the creation."

Tressa Shaw of Bridgeport is hoping that everyone attends Answers in Genesis.

"Everyone should come and see that God's word is truth from beginning to end," she said.

Ham will also speak May 23 at Calvary Baptist and Trinity Assembly of God churches. To pre-register for workshops or for more information, call 622-2241.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; News/Current Events; US: West Virginia
KEYWORDS: creationism; crevolist; evolution; wv
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To: Know your rights
What's to explain? "Irreducible" doesn't refer to the degree of the complexity.

I wanted you to explain how a progenitor race would evolve from non-living matter into a race far more advanced than us, yet retain reducable systems.

81 posted on 05/18/2004 11:34:54 AM PDT by Shryke (Never retreat. Never explain. Get it done and let them howl.)
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To: All
Perhaps we can all save time and, instead of endlessly debating these topics, just place a bid on this and then ask it for answers if we win: Ark of the Convenant for sale on eBay.
82 posted on 05/18/2004 12:09:19 PM PDT by Ichneumon
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To: Ichneumon

That would look nice as a desk. Or a conference table. Maybe with a big thick glass top over it.


83 posted on 05/18/2004 12:31:54 PM PDT by PatrickHenry (A compassionate evolutionist!)
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To: Junior
just as soon as the occasional clot becomes large enough to present health risks, natural selection would favor the evolution of systems to keep clot formation in check. And where would these systems come from? From pre-existing proteins, of course, duplicated and modified. The tissues of the body produce a protein known as alpha-1-antitrypsin which binds to the active site of serine proteases found in tissues and keeps them in check. So, just as soon as clotting systems became strong enough, gene duplication would have presented natural selection with a working protease inhibitor

Miller's one step further along, but still hasn't addressed this point of Behe's: "The regulatory problems of the clotting cascade are particularly severe since, as pointed out by Halkier (1992, 104), error on either side--clotting too much or too little--is detrimental."

84 posted on 05/18/2004 12:33:03 PM PDT by Know your rights (The modern enlightened liberal doesn't care what you believe as long as you don't really believe it.)
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To: Shryke
I wanted you to explain how a progenitor race would evolve from non-living matter into a race far more advanced than us, yet retain reducable systems.

Why shouldn't they retain reducible systems? Increasing complexity in no way implies or requires a shift from reducible complexity to irreducible complexity.

85 posted on 05/18/2004 12:35:36 PM PDT by Know your rights (The modern enlightened liberal doesn't care what you believe as long as you don't really believe it.)
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To: Know your rights

But not necessarily fatal before the organism reaches breeding age -- and nature has a lot of individuals with which to experiment.


86 posted on 05/18/2004 12:37:33 PM PDT by Junior (Sodomy non sapiens)
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To: Junior
let's suppose that a mutation in the active site of B changes its behavior, making it a little less likely to cut fibrinogen and a little more likely to activate protease A.

What reason is there to suppose that such a slightly different molecule B can exist? Molecules are not in general changeable by arbitrary amounts. (Some can undergo continuous geometric transformations such as folding, but even if the molecule under discussion is one such, it is far from clear that a geometric transformation could have the effect Miller is looking for.)

87 posted on 05/18/2004 12:43:42 PM PDT by Know your rights (The modern enlightened liberal doesn't care what you believe as long as you don't really believe it.)
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To: Junior
But not necessarily fatal before the organism reaches breeding age -- and nature has a lot of individuals with which to experiment.

So you're suggesting that a species can evolve from A to C by way of an intermediate stage B that has less survivability than A, but leaves it possible with luck to reach stage C before it dies out? That strikes me as considerably less likely to work than the traditional idea of continuous improvement.

88 posted on 05/18/2004 12:48:41 PM PDT by Know your rights (The modern enlightened liberal doesn't care what you believe as long as you don't really believe it.)
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To: Know your rights
The change is to a section of DNA, and hence the resulting protein will be slightly different. Since the make-up of the DNA is limited (one of four specific thingies), the switch-out in the resulting protein will also be, of necessity, limited.

Actually read the full links I posted rather than just the excerpts I posted. The gist of both articles is that the cascade could have evolved without outside interference; whether it did is another matter entirely. However, Occam's razor specifically says we should not invoke unneeded entities, and aliens tampering with our DNA (evidently early on, as the origins of the cascade can be found in invertebrates) is doing just that.

89 posted on 05/18/2004 12:53:48 PM PDT by Junior (Sodomy non sapiens)
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To: Know your rights
[Behe's response dealt only with a few *other* points in that reference, which is why his response was irrelevant to the points in *my* post.]

You footnoted that reference with regard to cascades, and Behe's response did indeed address the reference's statements about cascades.

You're really grasping at straws here.

My point with regard to blood clotting was:

It's hard to tell whether Behe does this through ignorance or willful dishonesty, but the fact remains that *his* definition and analysis of "IC" is too restrictive. He places too many "rules" on how he will "allow" evolution to reach his examples of "Behe-style IC" structures, while evolution itself *IS NOT RESTRICTED TO THOSE RULES* when it operates. Thus Behe's conclusion that "Behe-style evolution" can not reach "Behe-style IC" hardly tells us anything about whether *real-world* evolution could or could not have produced them.

[...]

Behe's example of the "Behe-style IC" blood-clotting process is flawed because the biochemistry of blood-clotting is easily reached by adding several steps on top of a more primitive biochemical sequence, *and then REMOVING earlier portions which had become redundant* (1, 2).

In a nutshell, Behe's argument relies on the *false* premise that evolution can only build systems by incrementally only *adding* components. As I point out, the blood clotting mechanism could have been constructed (and from biochemical clues, most probably *was* constructed) by a sequence of "add-change-remove". Behe completely fails to take into account the existence of such possibilities.

The link I referenced at that point also discussed that specific issue, as well as giving the reader more information on the nature of the blood clotting mechanism and how the parts of it could have evolved in "non-Behe-style" ways that Behe failed to take into account.

Behe's "response", such as it is, is laughable. The entire portion of his reply which deals with this issue is this single passage:

In "Behe's Black Box. 2: Cascades" Robison gives an argument that cascades can develop gradually. I encourage him to develop the argument rigorously and submit it to a refereed journal for publication. If he does so, he will be the first.
Boom, that's it. But sadly, THIS COMPLETELY SIDESTEPS THE ACTUAL POINT. Behe, either through dishonesty or lack of understanding, doesn't even *touch* upon the actual point that was being made. He just snottily suggests that Robison should publish his argument. This is *not* a rebuttal, it's a dodge.

Furthermore, it's not up to Robison to prove that the blood clotting mechanism *did* evolve that way -- the whole point is that unless Behe can prove that it *DIDN'T*, Behe has no right whatsoever to claim that he has "shown" that the blood clotting mechanism is "Irreducibly Complex", because the whole notion of "IC" rests on the argument that you *can* and *have* ruled out all possible evolutionary mechanisms by which the system in question might have arisen by evolution. Not only has Behe clearly not done so, but he has failed to even once *ponder* the issue of evolution reaching a state involving *any* kind of subtractive operation -- Behe's entire personal definition of "IC" in fact allows for evolution to *ONLY* build a system by successively *adding* components, *period*. But it is well known that real-life evolution is not so restricted. In fact, even hard-core *creationists* accept that evolution can proceed via the removal of components or features (amusingly, some of them insist that's the *only* way that evolution actually operates, by removing functionality from a "created" original).

Behe, quite simply, utterly fails to address the point that was being made about the flaw(s) in his work -- just as I said, and I stand by that statement. The fact that he used the word "cascade" in a hit-and-run sentence hardly turns that passage into a cogent rebuttal.

Worse, Behe is being an enormous hypocrite -- he snottily suggests that Robison submit his points to a refereed (i.e. peer-reviewed) journal for publication, and yet Behe himself has spent years making excuses for why he published *his* work in a mass-market book for general audiences, and has NOT ever submitted them for peer-review. In fact, Behe gets downright testy when asked about that. So he's being a real asshat to ask Robison to jump through that hoop when Behe himself won't.

Finally, when Behe writes, "If he does so, he will be the first" with regards to publishing "the argument that cascades can develop gradually", Behe is either baldfaced lying, or revealing massive ignorance.

Let me repeat that in case you missed it: Behe is either baldfaced lying, or revealing massive ignorance.

Behe published his book in 1996, and the "response" you're so impressed with also in 1996. So what excuse does he then have for pretending to be blissfully unaware of the large number of previously published articles on that EXACT topic, for example:

Doolittle, R. F., (1993) "The evolution of vertebrate blood coagulation: A case of yin and yang," Thrombosis and Haemostasis 70: 24-28.

Doolittle, R. F., and Feng, D. F., (1987) "Reconstructing the evolution of vertebrate blood coagulation from a consideration of the amino acid sequences of clotting proteins," Cold Spring Harbor Symposia on Quantitative Biology 52: 869-874.

Doolittle, R. F., and Riley, M. (1990) "The amino-acid sequence of lobster fibriongen reveals common ancestry with vitellogenin." Biochemical and Biophysical Research Communications. 167: 16-19.

Xu, X., and Doolittle, R. F., (1990) "Presence of a vertebrate fibrinogen-like sequence in an echinoderm." Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (USA) 87: 2097-2101.

Behe arrogantly claims to know how the blood clotting system could or could not have evolved -- and yet seems remarkably ignorant of such basic research on the topic as the above references. If he wants to declare himself such an expert on the topic that he can conclusively rule out any possible evolutionary pathway by which it might have evolved, WHY HASN'T HE DONE HIS HOMEWORK?

And what's *your* excuse for missing them? They were in the second reference I linked...

Yet another article on Behe's errors and misconceptions regarding blood clotting and its evolution: Is the Blood Clotting Cascade "Irreducibly Complex?".

And there are dozens more if you'd like to see them.

As I said, Behe failed to tackle the points I raised in the response you keep harping about. That was a true statement, and I stand by it. And I'm less and less impressed with people whose idea of "intellectual honesty" in discussing this topic is to stamp their feet and say, "Behe has demolished you all, somewhere over in yon reponse!". If you still think so after all this, feel free to start presenting some of the counterpoints IN YOUR OWN WORDS instead of just waving in the general direction of some scattershot reply by Behe and declaring that he's already adequately dealt with the objections, WHEN HE HAS NOT.

90 posted on 05/18/2004 1:16:50 PM PDT by Ichneumon
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To: Junior
The gist of both articles is that the cascade could have evolved without outside interference

Could have *only if* a slightly changed protease B with the specified properties exists.

91 posted on 05/18/2004 1:16:53 PM PDT by Know your rights (The modern enlightened liberal doesn't care what you believe as long as you don't really believe it.)
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To: Ichneumon
stamp their feet and say, "Behe has demolished you all, somewhere over in yon reponse!". [...] waving in the general direction of some scattershot reply by Behe and declaring that he's already adequately dealt with the objections

Have fun beating those straw men.

92 posted on 05/18/2004 1:27:39 PM PDT by Know your rights (The modern enlightened liberal doesn't care what you believe as long as you don't really believe it.)
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To: Know your rights
[please point out an example of an "evolumaniac" (definition, please?) who makes a "loud claim" (how loud?) that there is no "debate taking place" on this topic.]

When you claim that a certain flaw has been established,

It has.

and cite in support a reference for which Behe has responded to the claimed flaw,

See prior post -- Behe's saying in effect "oh yeah?? Prove it!!" barely even counts as a "response".

you are misrepresenting the status of the debate.

No, I'm not -- I pointed out flaws, neither you nor Behe have actually rebutted them.

But even if he had, how in the heck do you get from a disagreement over who has responded to what when, all the way to: "there is certainly a debate taking place (contrary to the loud claims of some evolumaniacs)."

Who do you fantasize has ever claimed that there *wasn't* a debate taking place?

And why do you keep shifting the goalposts?

93 posted on 05/18/2004 1:27:59 PM PDT by Ichneumon
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To: Know your rights
Why shouldn't they retain reducible systems?

Indeed. Why would a more complex creature retain reducability, while a far simpler one not? Do you not see the absurdity of the question? It may be possible that this has happened, however, it seems extremely unlikely, if not completely illogical.

94 posted on 05/18/2004 1:35:51 PM PDT by Shryke (Never retreat. Never explain. Get it done and let them howl.)
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To: Shryke
Why would a more complex creature retain reducability, while a far simpler one not?

Why not, since the reducibility or irreducibility of complexity has nothing to do with the degree of complexity? I think you're reading things into "irreducible" that aren't there.

95 posted on 05/18/2004 1:41:25 PM PDT by Know your rights (The modern enlightened liberal doesn't care what you believe as long as you don't really believe it.)
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To: Ichneumon
Behe's argument relies on the *false* premise that evolution can only build systems by incrementally only *adding* components. As I point out, the blood clotting mechanism could have been constructed (and from biochemical clues, most probably *was* constructed) by a sequence of "add-change-remove". Behe completely fails to take into account the existence of such possibilities.

Is what you're saying qualitatively different from what Miller says in "Is the Blood Clotting Cascade "Irreducibly Complex?""?

96 posted on 05/18/2004 1:45:56 PM PDT by Know your rights (The modern enlightened liberal doesn't care what you believe as long as you don't really believe it.)
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To: Know your rights
Why not, since the reducibility or irreducibility of complexity has nothing to do with the degree of complexity?

I've pointed out that your scenario is counter-intuitive. Why would this be something you believe has occurred, when it is so unlikely?

97 posted on 05/18/2004 2:10:32 PM PDT by Shryke (Never retreat. Never explain. Get it done and let them howl.)
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To: Junior
I'm a veteran of a thousand crevo wars*

Blue Oyster Cult?

98 posted on 05/18/2004 2:18:23 PM PDT by RightWingNilla
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To: Know your rights
So you're suggesting that a species can evolve from A to C by way of an intermediate stage B that has less survivability than A, but leaves it possible with luck to reach stage C before it dies out? That strikes me as considerably less likely to work than the traditional idea of continuous improvement.

You obviously cannot grasp the concept. "B" has a survival advantage over "A" (after all, it was a small change in the DNA that got from "A" to "B"). "C" never entered into it.

99 posted on 05/18/2004 2:22:50 PM PDT by Junior (Sodomy non sapiens)
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To: Know your rights

Exactly. And since it does, there is no need to invoke an outside entity.


100 posted on 05/18/2004 2:23:39 PM PDT by Junior (Sodomy non sapiens)
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