DEA agent shoots self during gun safety class for Orlando kids

The Miami Herald ^ | Fri, Apr. 30, 2004 | Associated Press

[archy]

DEA agent shoots self during gun safety class for Orlando kids

Associated Press

ORLANDO, Fla. - A federal drug agent shot himself in the leg during a gun safety presentation to children and his bosses are investigating.

The Drug Enforcement Administration agent, whose name was not released, was giving a gun safety presentation to about 50 adults and students organized by the Orlando Minority Youth Golf Association, witnesses and police said.

He drew his .40-caliber duty weapon and removed the magazine, according to the police report. Then he pulled back the slide and asked someone in the audience to look inside the gun and confirm it wasn't loaded, the report said.

Witnesses said the gun was pointed at the floor and when he released the slide, one shot fired into the top of his left thigh.

"The kids screamed and started to cry," said Vivian Farmer, who attended the presentation with her 13-year-old nephew.

"Everyone was pretty shaken up," Farmer said. "But the point of gun safety hit home. Unfortunately, the agent had to get shot. But after seeing that, my nephew doesn't want to have anything to do with guns."

The agent was treated at Orlando Regional Medical Center after the April 9 shooting and returned to work, DEA special agent Joe Kilmer said.

Police ruled the shooting was an accident, but the DEA headquarters in Washington was still investigating, Kilmer said.

[bondjamesbond]

Which guns would that be? I don't know of any that the slide can be held back all the way without emptying the chamber.

Of course. But if you don't pull the slide all the way back, you can reveal the chamber without ejecting a bullet (or chambering a bullet, if the magazine is in). For instance, if it is your practice to keep the chamber empty, to reduce the possibility of an accidental discharge, you would clear the weapon, insert a magazine, and pull the slide back just enough to confirm that the chamber was empty, and let the slide back gently. Then you're good to (not) go.

[ahadams2]

In non-technical terms [note to instructors and gun buffs - I'm oversimplifying this]: most semiautomatic firearms utilize some form of a small spring steel device called an ejector. The ejector has a hook on the end of it which snaps over the rim of the base of the cartridge being loaded into the firing chamber (the place at the rear of the barrel where the cartridge sits until the trigger is pulled). when the cartridge is fired, the bullet goes forward through the barrel while the slide goes backward with the now fired (and thus empty) brass cartridge case. When the cartridge comes parallel with the ejection port the spring steel ejector is putting enough pressure on one part of the rim of the case that the brass flies out the ejection port. If there is a live cartridge in the chamber and the slide is pulled back *sharply*, the live cartridge *should* also be ejected in a similar manner.

In a clean, well built firearm the extractor will work 99.9% of the time. It's that other .1% that will get you if you're not paying attention.

Bottom line here is that the only possible absolutely reliable safety mechanism isn't mechanical - it's the guy or gal operating the firearm; and that only works when said guy or gal makes an absolute habit of doing everything right (including visually inspecting the chamber of the firearm) every single time.

[The KG9 Kid]

(shhh.. Just watch)

[Shooter 2.5]

You meant a press check on the first post where you pull the slide just enough to reveal the head.

On the second, you're doing the same but just making sure the chamber is empty.

Got it.

[TERMINATTOR]

Just holding back the trigger while releasing the slide will not normally result in the gun fireing. You have to let off the trigger and pull it again with a semi-auto.

[Shooter 2.5]

Substitute the word "Ejector" for the word "Extractor".

[archy]

Alright, I'll start the flame-fest since no-one else will.

DEA-issue duty pistols are GLOCKS.

We need someone to do some black-and-white photoshopping.

[teeman8r]

in an unrelated story, senator john f kerry has nominated a dea agent for the senatorial purple heart...

[The KG9 Kid]

*Danger Will Robinson*

That's not always the case. There are several semi-autos I know of that will fire if the trigger is depressed when the slide or bolt goes forward on a live round.

[ZULU]

"But the point of gun safety hit home. "

Idiots shouldn't have guns and not all idiots are civilians. Good thing it wasn't pointed at a kid.

Based on news reports I have seen, Law Enforcement Personnel are frequently the LAST people who should be providing gun safety classes to anybody.

They should have invited in an NRA Safety instructor.

[Constitution Day]

About 2 miles from my office, there is a regional police training center.

A couple of years ago, some cops from Raleigh, NC (an hour away), lost a H&K MP-5, in its plastic case, on the way to training.
It fell out of the back of the truck!

You wanna know the kicker?

SOMEONE ACTUALLY TURNED THE MP-5 IN!

[CHICAGOFARMER]

The Drug Enforcement Administration agent, whose name was not released, was giving a gun safety presentation to about 50 adults and students organized by the Orlando Minority Youth Golf Association, witnesses and police said.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

How stupid this idiot.

First, he carriers a loaded gun into a school. It is not necessary to have bullet in the chamber in a school. This is idiotic. I fired 15,000 rounds last year, I don't carry a bullet in the pipe even when I carry concealed.

Second, this DEA stupid idiot did not check himself to unload the gun. This idiot thinks, thought that by removing the magazine the gun was empty. Stupid does as stupid is.

Three rules

a firearm is always loaded, even when it is empty.

Keep you finger of the trigger until you have a target.

neve le tthe muzzle cover anything you wish not to destroy.

[Little Ray]

I would have turned it in, esp. if it was marked as someone's property...

Besides, I can afford to keep an SMG in ammo!

[Rockpile]

My guess would be that Agent XXXXXX---the Upper Class get's special privacy privileges---was done with the unloading demo and automatically reloaded and was reholstering, hence the thigh hit. AND HE WAS TALKING TO THE CLASS WHILST DOING SO.Would also guess he was using a Glock.

Actually, I think a safety display for the "yutes" is not a bad idea but there really ought to be a dedicated weapon with specifically safe training ammo to use instead of somebody's service piece with live rounds.

PS, this is not in the Darwin Award category {fatal}, this is a Cleland Trophy moment.

[VRWCmember]

I remember an occasion in a HS outdoor education class where we had a cop come in to teach a firearm safety unit. He pulled out a little Baretta .22 or .25 semi-auto and popped the magazine out and then waived the gun around briefly pointing it toward the desks where we were seated. I ducked quickly nearly falling out of my desk to stay below his line of "aim" of the pistol. He commended me as being the only one in the class that was paying enough attention and treating the gun as a loaded weapon, which shut up the classmates that were laughing at me. He then jacked the slide ejecting the cartridge that had been in the chamber.

[archy]

Was that one of those ultra safe Glocks?

Probably; not certainly. The Glock has had a spotty past with DEA, per following:

While Suffolk County P.D.'s "AD heard 'round the world" certainly lent impetus to Glock's "going public" with its upgrade, clearly this is something that had been in the works for a considerable period of time, and well before October 1991.

Documents first provided by a source professing to be knowledgeable about the situation, and buttressed by other documents released under a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request, indicate that failure during the "Frisbee" portion of the 1991 test protocols (DEA-91-R-0023), led to the Austrian pistols being "rated as unacceptable" for broader adoption by the Federal law enforcement agency. (Whereas Glocks had been one of several DEA-approved handguns, subsequent to the tests, the agency selected the SIG P228 as their "official" handgun and removed Glock as an option. No existing Glocks were removed from service, however, and Glock's Walter stated at the time that "Glock is not going to protest the test results, since we feel they were fair and equitable.")

§L.16.1.b.(2)(c) of the agency's solicitation, Abuse Testing, required that submitted "weapons, with magazine inserted, will be thrown six times, three times in such a way as to land on the right side and three times in such a way as to land on the left side. The throw will be for a distance of approximately fifteen feet, not to exceed a height of approximately four feet, to land on a floor of quarry tile or concrete." From the FOIA request documents it was learned that beneath the Consensus Report heading of "Weaknesses" the evaluation committee stated:

Throw test: Frame 479 (with) slide 318, 1st throw left side the slide came off both rear rails. Frame 474 (with) slide 479, 1st throw right side slide came off right rear rails, rear pistol grip under landyard (sic) loop hole cracked and broke the grip after throw test, pulled the trigger would not fire. Tap, Rack, Bang would result in function of the weapon. Frame 477 (with) slide 305, slide came off right side rear rails on the first throw. Frame 318 (with) slide 474, 1st drop rear of pistol grip broken by the landyard (sic) loop hole. Based on the failure of the slides coming off the rear rails it was concluded that the weapons would not be further tested. Therefore no firing of the weapons took place after the throw test....

The original source explained:
Of all the tests of throwing Glock pistols, none before had ever been done with a loaded magazine in the pistol. Magazine out of the pistol, no problem. Magazine in the pistol, BIG PROBLEM. In the DEA tests the slide came off the frame and the pistol discharged. Gaston Glock and Reinhold Hirschheiter concluded that the slide rails were too short and that the firing pin safety needed improvement. Gaston determined that it would be too expensive to recall all pistols and replace the frames and firing pin safety systems.
At this point the narrative takes an especially interesting twist.
Karl Walter asked Gaston Glock to recall all pistols and fix the total problem. He refused and directed Karl to call the eventual project a product "upgrade" and NOT a recall.

The source expressed the opinion that this disagreement signaled the beginning of the end for Karl Walter at Glock, but, while stating that the upgrade of the "...firing pin system was the cheapest way out," described the chronology of a subsequent redesign. Even if the slide would still come off, the pistol would not discharge due to the new system. However, Mr. Glock did know that the frame rails were a big problem, in particular with future Federal bids, so he quietly lengthened the rails.

This is why there are at least three² different propagations of Glock receivers around, for the first attempt proved too long, and the subsequent "medium" length of frame rails seemed to do the trick.

In the final analysis, the April 1992 announcement of the "Six Part Product Upgrade" appears in retrospect to have been a temporizing measure while the frame was being re-engineered to withstand the harsh protocols of the "DEA Frisbee Test." Officials at Glock have refused to confirm this for the record, of course, but what is known is that the the newer pistols have not only been once again approved by the DEA, but have been adopted for issue by the FBI.

[Constitution Day]

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'd have turned it in as well.

It's just that there are so many dishonest people out there.
I suppose it's a sad sign when I find it surprising when people do the right thing.

[Ranxerox]

Boy, I don't if I could resist the temptation if I found something like that...naaahh, I would just turn it in significantly more used than when they lost it.

[archy]

That's not always the case. There are several semi-autos I know of that will fire if the trigger is depressed when the slide or bolt goes forward on a live round.

The DEA ful-auto Glock 18 machine pistols come to mind. Just imagine if a magazine had been in place and the fumbling fed had sprayed 17 rounds into the smiling rows of kiddies. Or had the full-capacity magazine in place and cut loose with all 33 shots.

[Larry Lucido]

Its kind of like the LEO that was caught putting tire chains on his upside down patrol vehicle.

Hey, that's not so far-fetched. I've always found it much easier to put chains on tires when the car's upside down!