An Open letter to President Bush (End run vs. Outsourcing)

Me | Me

[Petronski]

Guess you're just as big a lying POS as Havoc.

Ding! Ding! Ding!

[XBob]

695 - "It's your argument, you make it (if you can)."

I did - read the frappin thread, lazy.

[XBob]

696 - "Rabid capitalism in Stalin's Russia?!"

No, it's what lead to Stalin's Russia, uncontrolled serfdom/capitalism, which destroyed the economy, which lead to Stalin's USSR and the dictatorship of the proletariat.

DUH !!!

[XBob]

697 - "Anarchy AND dictatorship"

Right dummy. Sequentially.

[XBob]

698 - "Then you need to learn to read. I NEVER said there should be no restrictions period."

So, since you say you never said that, what do you think you said?

[discostu]

But that isn't what led to Stalin's Russia. The Czarist government ran a command economy, serfdom but not capitalism. And the economy was in pretty good shape, at least as good as any serf-state which has a vested interest in keeping a certain section of the people poor. And it didn't lead to Stalin's Russia, it lead to Lenin's Russia, Lenin's death and his lack of strong associates led to Stalin's Russia, and Stalin's rampant paranoia is what made Stalin's Russia so evil.

You've got the same problem trying to justify Mao. Capitalism isn't what Mao fought against, colonialism was what he overthrew.

And you're hosed on the Hitler issue since it was really the punishments inflicted on Germany after WWI that crippled their economy, combine that with a totally bizarre form of democracy they implimented which led to 4 national elections in 1 year and dozens of political parties that left the German people ready for war and fascism.

You try to blame everything on capitalism, but your sad attempts just show you know nothing about history, or what capitalism actually is.

[Petronski]

Here are your quotes from #499 (emphasis added):

A bad economy and runaway inflation created Hitler. (I have a postage stamp for 3 billion marks), and caused him to purge millions of Jews, and caused WWII.

A bad economy caused Stalin to purge millions of Kulaks.

Mao Tse Tung killed millions in China because of the bad economy.

Read your own words. "A bad economy caused Stalin to purge millions of Kulaks."

That is an indefensible historical LIE.

[discostu]

The guy that thinks I want anarchy AND dictatorship is calling me a dummy?! That's funny.

Amazing how incapable you guys are of dealing with people without using insults. "dummy" "free traitor". If you had any confidence in your position you could be polite, but since you know you're wrong you go straight to insults hoping to win with volume what you cannot possibly win with logic.

[discostu]

What I said, multiple times, is that restrictions need to be carefully considered. Because profitable corporations are a vital ingredient of a healthy economy we have to make sure our restrictions still allow business to be successful. Offshoring shows us that if business can't be successful in America they'll leave, that's because business is about money, corporations exist for profit. In a perfect world maybe corporations would be into things like nationalism and loyalty, but like the Walgreens commercials say "we're a long way from perfect". Out here in reality corporations exist for the sole purpose of making a profit, that is their only duty. This doesn't mean they should be restricted, but the restrictions have to be smart.

You've got to think restrictions through, understand their impact on business, understand business' ability to go elsewhere, understand cost of compliance. Look at Ann Richard's environmental laws when she was governor of Texas compared to Bush's. Ann's laws were much more restrictive, but the cost of compliance was too high and it didn't make economic sense for businesses to follow the law, because of that Texas became the most poluted state in the union. Bush came in, lowered the laws to make it cheaper to obey, increased the fines so they'd be higher than cost of compliance, and it became profitable to obey the law and Texas was rewarded twice for having he most improved environmental quality. Any kind of restriction on business has the ability to be like Ann's or be like Bush's, there's also a third possibility of just driving business away. Only one of those three options is the right one. The other two is what I'm arguing against.

When I said corporations only duty is to profit I was simply explaining one of the oldest truisms of capitalist life. Thomas Jefferson understood that merchants have no loyalty to the ground they stand on and are only loyal to the ground they earn on. That's the simple truth, anybody expecting a corporation to be loyal to a country just because that's where their articles of incorporation are stored might as well expect rain to be dry. Corporations are loyal to profit, that is why they are made, that is why they exist, that is their sole purpose throughout their lifespan. Don't like it? Too bad. Don't blame me for it, I didn't make the rules I'm just quoting them.

And that is what I've been saying all along, but because you rely entirely on pre-packaged insults I still don't expect you to get it.

[XBob]

707 -
If you will read this again, and read back, to where it came from, it was addressed to a previous post, and I was emphasizing that bad economies killed far more people than terrorists.

And I said:

"bad economy and runaway inflation created Hitler."
"bad economy caused Stalin"
"Mao Tse Tung killed millions in China because of the bad economy."

Not capitalism. Bad capitalism can however, lead to bad economies, which will kill millions and cause wars killing millions more.

[XBob]

706 - boy, what history are they teaching you kids these days?

If you will follow
You wrote:
"But that isn't what led to Stalin's Russia. The Czarist government ran a command economy, serfdom but not capitalism. And the economy was in pretty good shape, at least as good as any serf-state which has a vested interest in keeping a certain section of the people poor. And it didn't lead to Stalin's Russia, it lead to Lenin's Russia, Lenin's death and his lack of strong associates led to Stalin's Russia, and Stalin's rampant paranoia is what made Stalin's Russia so evil. "

Repression and poverty of the masses under serfdom (bad economy for the serfs) lead to revolution, which lead to anarchy of civil war, and a short lived (2 years) republic, which lead to marxism/leninism, which died when lenin died shortly after which lead to stalinism, who murdered millions of 'capitalists', the kulaks because of massive starvation (bad economy).

If I remember correctly, The bad economy was caused by bad capitalists, kulaks (the only capitalists left in russia), who, in spite of a very bad and dangerous wheat mold, poisonsous, harvested their wheat and made it into bread, which ended up killing millions of people either from the bad wheat or from starvation. This provided the perfect opportunity for Stalin to take their land, and get rid of opposition at the same time.

[XBob]

706 - "You've got the same problem trying to justify Mao. Capitalism isn't what Mao fought against, colonialism was what he overthrew. "

My goodness, you don't know anything about history. China was not a colony of anybody, except for tiny trading places like Hong Kong. Mao fought against the capitalist, Chaing Kai Schek, who ruled china, as the remnants of the last dynasty disintigrated, and it was converted to chinese capitalism, which caused civil war, which Mao won, running Chaing off to Taiwan, where he kept up the 'fictional' chinese government of the Republic of China.

Again, bad economy caused anarchy and civil war, leading to dictatorship and socialism.

China, under Chaing, was our ally in WWII, not a colony.

You really are ignorant, arent you.

[Petronski]

LOL. Liar.

and I was emphasizing that bad economies killed far more people than terrorists.

Apologist bullshit. The tyrants who seized power in the wake of those events took it upon themselves to kill, capriciously, millions of innocent people.

And you apologize for them by blaming their economies.

You have disected your posts, I quoted your entire sentences.

Tell me again how a bad economy caused Stalin to kill the Kulaks.

(Why I'm surprised you defend Stalin, I cannot imagine.)

[Petronski]

Get a load of this guy!

[discostu]

Actually what they taught us in the mid-80s was exactly the kind of anti-capitalist pro-commujnist crap you're spouting. Said crap bears no actual resemblance to what really happened, but wealth hating liberal NEA members don't consider the truth of how communism rose convenient.

No the bad economy in Russia was NOT caused by captialism. They didn't even have capitalism. Their bad economy was because they had a ruling class that owned almost everything and were inept. Part of the problem with a command economy is that when the person in command is a moron the economy is toast. Add to that the tremendous weight the Czarist lifestyle put on the economy (gold gilt palaces don't pay for themselves you know) and you have ruination ripe for rebellion (a rebellion which had been brewing since shortly before our Civil War and had been dealt with to varying intencities by half a dozen Czars, a couple of whom actually tried moving Russia away from serfdom and toward capitalism, other members of the ruling class didn't like that and helped the rebels for a while... the Russia revolution is really quite facinating and a worthy thing to study).

You don't remember correctly. Stalin killed people to protect himself. He was a blood thirsty dictator who wouldn't allow anyone he thought even had a chance of overthrowing him to live. One of the major groups of people he executed were surviving members of Lenin's revolution, they'd proven able to overthrow a dictator once and he wasn't going to give them a second chance. Now he might have labeled them kulaks, but that's just the kind of lie a blood thirsty dictator tells to make their pograms more palatable to the people.

[XBob]

706 - "And you're hosed on the Hitler issue since it was really the punishments inflicted on Germany after WWI that crippled their economy, combine that with a totally bizarre form of democracy they implimented which led to 4 national elections in 1 year and dozens of political parties that left the German people ready for war and fascism. "

Here you are sort of right, except that Germany had a long history of capitalism, (Remember Krupp and the Ruhr Valley steel and chemical industries, and the magnificent German fleet of WWI?) and unbridled capitalism, leading to WWI and when that was lost, and reparations were extracted, essentially again, anarchy insued, massive inflation, and starvation, and then Hitler, once again establishing tyranny, which killed millions more, which led to WWII, which killed millions more .

So - basically, unrestrained capitalism, leads to anarchy, and dictatorship.

All the above happened, while we had 'restrained' capitalism, thanks to Teddy Roosevelt, and his 'trust busters', giving us 'restrained capitalism, which gave us the powerhouse of a nation we had for many many years.

UNRESTRAINED CAPITALISM IS BAD.

RESTRAINED CAPITALISM IS GOOD.

[XBob]

708 - "The guy that thinks I want anarchy AND dictatorship is calling me a dummy?! That's funny"

You want unrestrained capitalism, with no responsibility to anyone or anything except profits.

That leads to poverty of the masses, then revolt, then anarchy and then dictatorship.

[XBob]

709 - "What I said, multiple times, is that restrictions need to be carefully considered."

what you actually said was:

"698 "I NEVER said there should be no restrictions period. Never, not once, not even close to it."


504 - "The people ... What is a corporation's duty to them? Corporations have a duty to investors and share holder, and nobody else. Deal with it.
504 posted on 04/12/2004 4:05:49 PM CDT by discostu "

[XBob]

709 - "You've got to think restrictions through, understand their impact on business, understand business' ability to go elsewhere, understand cost of compliance. "

Now, show me just where you have said that previously, in all your posts on this thread?, or any thread for that matter, I haven't read them all.

[discostu]

I didn't say Germany didn't have capitalism. I didn't cause either WWI or WWII though. That's just dumb. WWI was caused by bad alliances combined with an urge to settle a lot of old grudges. WWII was caused by the end of WWI (left Germany destitute and made it functionally illegal for them to rebuild their economy). The Cold War was caused by the end of WWII (divided Europe and elevated the US and USSR to super power status). And the War on Terror was caused by the end of the Cold War (propped up a lot of nasty people, especially in the mid-east, creating a lot of bad blood, then just walked away from Afghanistan leaving it in total chaos)... hopefully we'll actually properly clean up the loose ends this time. Blaming capitalism for these things shows you're a communist, capitalism doesn't cause problem capitalism cures them, it is the only economic system that encourages the average person to innovate and invent, it is the only economic system that allows people to improve their lot in life and die wealthier than their parents, it is the only economic system that gives everybody a shot at the brass ring.