Heavy Fighting in AR Ramadi Iraq~~~ Sadr's fighters have attacked US Forces.

Fox News

[Dog]

Just broke on Fox

[kcvl]

Amen, Rose.

[MEG33]

You are better than I.I can't watch CNN if they are gloating.

[bcoffey]

CNN: The ATTACKERS in AR Ramadi ARE NOT SADR'S FOLLOWERS...

While CNN's accuracy is about on par with Debka, this is still another variable in the equation.

Plus, someone posted to this thread earlier that several HVTs had been captured.

Curiouser and curiouser.

[Arkinsaw]

According to John Keegan (Intell in war) Intell has never determined the outcome of a battle

It sort of determined the battle of Pearl Harbor and the battle of Midway.

[r9etb]

Intell has never determined the outcome of a battle - it is brute force that is the key!

That's an overstatement. Intel allows you to put your forces where they'll do the most good. It's not "brute force," but without intel, the biggest army will flounder.

[TomGuy]

Australian paper reporting that Sunnis and Shiites are uniting against the US for the cause.

That will make them easier to kill---the troops won't have to sort them out beforehand.

The more the Coalition take out now, the fewer problematic ones will be alive to cause more trouble.

[bcoffey]

boy is language going the way of the currency in the civil war - heavy inflation.

Makes you wonder whether this is a slow news week ... or sweeps week.

[Mr. Lucky]

Satan.

[BushMeister]

Getting all of the fanatics to charge straight at our machine guns is a very good thing.

I agree, of course. But it's even better to interdict some of the fanatics before they surround our compounds.

Can this turn out to be a "good" day? I suppose, if we break the back of this rebellion within a week or so, and we become stronger and more prepared through this experience.

I always comfort myself on days like this by reflecting on the average of 216 KIA we suffered every day for 1,351 days in WWII, when the US had a population of 140 million. But the problem is that many Americans see this as a "war of choice" of GWB, and they are very reluctant to take casualties.

[ScaniaBoy]

OK, fair question, fog of war etc...

Casualty figures are often overestimated on both sides.

On the other hand I think it is fair to assume that the Coalition forces have an overwhelming battle field awareness.

[CasearianDaoist]

"Major combat operations" technically entail the deployment of maneuver units - a combat brigade, a division a Corp., that sort of thing. I imagine that they have one or two battalions of riflemen out and some supporting armor and perhaps. This is just dig at Bush. It really is not a "Major Combat Operation," it is just another media mischaracterization. If it were there would be thousand of enemy deaths. It may stick but it is not true.

[TomGuy]

FoxNews reporting 11 marines KIA and 20 wounded.

Earlier report on CNN says 130 enemy KIA.

[Dog]

FOX: 70 Fighters converged on the Governors Palace in AR Ramadi......20 enemy fighters dead.

[M. Dodge Thomas]

I don't think the parallels with Vietnam are very strong – for starters, there is no North Vietnam - let alone a China or a USSR - arming or financing the insurgents.

The best US parallel that I can think of (and it's far from exact) was the counter-insurgency effort in the Philippines: a long drawn out low intensity conflict against a determined insurgency at least tacitly supported by a substantial portion of the population.

The biggest difference is that that was a low-tech low-cost effort, basically a police action conducted by pre WWII 20th century infantry, and fielding a modern hi-tech force to conduct such an effort largely in urban areas is something else entirely. For one thing it's hideously expensive – at least 100 billion a year plus opportunity costs. And if we intend to pursue this effort and still have the ability to do anything else on short notice, we will have to increase the size of our combat forces by 50%, and perhaps double them - which I don’t think would be possible without a draft.

So if we are serious about this, we will find ourselves in a situation quite different than anything either Bush or Kerry is willing to discuss at the moment.

[TexKat]

Bret Baier: The Pentagon is telling him at least 11 Marines dead and at least 20 injured. Not sure who the enemy is. The US has the situation under control, they do have some enemies in custody.

[Gulf War One]

Liz, you sound like someone who has never eyewitnessed a general engagement, so I rather doubt you are an authority on 'major combat'.

It sounds to me -- with the emphasis on sounds -- the the division headquarters element of the 1st MarDiv was decisively engaged; in other words, in mortal danger of catastrophe, and further, that they acquitted themselves as one would expect of Marines, and carried.

But perhaps we should all wait to hear what really happened. But make no mistake. This was a big deal today. A really big deal.

Semper fidelis.

[MEG33]

11 marines dead,20 injured in Ramadi..initial reports.It could be one of three groups,former baathists,al Sadr's group or Sunni,Fallujah bunch.Several captured.