I also included this little gem from our own SAMWolf:
More GREAT bumper stickers here. (check all 3 pages!)
Posted on 03/01/2004 5:21:47 PM PST by swilhelm73
o In his April 1971 speech to the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations, John Kerry claimed that war crimes committed by the American military against Vietnamese civilians were "not isolated incidents, but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis..." War crimes in Vietnam were actually quite rare.
o Kerry claimed that war crimes were committed "with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command." The truth is that war crimes were never a matter of policy, and were prosecuted when discovered.
o Kerry charged that the war in Vietnam was a racist war, that "blacks provided the highest percentage of casualties." In reality, casualty rates for black and white soldiers during Vietnam closely matched their proportions of America's overall population.
o Kerry claimed that Vietnam was "ravaged equally by American bombs and search-and-destroy missions as well as by Viet Cong terrorism..." Later in his remarks, Kerry responded to a question about what might happen to the South Vietnamese after our withdrawal with "So what I am saying is that yes, there will be some recrimination but far, far less than the 200,000 a year who are murdered by the United States of America..." Yet according to historian Guenter Lewy in "America in Vietnam," "...the number of civilians killed deliberately by the VC is appallingly high. No counterpart to this death toll caused by communist terror tactics exists on the allied side."
o Asked for a recommendation about possible courses of action for Congress to pursue, Kerry stated that he had talked with representatives from Hanoi and from the PRG (Viet Cong) at the Paris peace talks, and mentioned his support for "Madam Binh's points." Madam Win Thi Binh was at that time the Foreign Minister for the PRG.
o Kerry was a leader, fund-raiser, and spokesman for Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW), an organization that staged mock mass murders of civilians to dramatize American atrocities, and handed out flyers that read "if you had been Vietnamese" American infantrymen might have "burned your house" or "raped your wife and daughter" and "American soldiers do these things every day to the Vietnamese simply because they are 'Gooks.'"
o Kerry's used "testimony" from the VVAW's "Winter Soldier Investigation" as the basis for his war crimes charges. Later investigators were unable to confirm the charges, and in fact discovered that a number of the witnesses were never in Vietnam, never in combat, or were imposters who had assumed the identity of real veterans.
o The deception extended to the VVAW leadership. Executive secretary Al Hubbard claimed to have been an Air Force captain wounded piloting a transport over Da Nang in 1966. Hubbard was actually a staff sergeant who had never been assigned to Vietnam.
o The Winter Soldier Investigation was financed by pro-Hanoi radicals such as Jane Fonda and Mark Lane, who hoped to undermine American support for the war by framing American soldiers as mass murderers. At the same time, the North Vietnamese military was torturing American prisoners of war to make them confess to identical crimes. At least one former POW has stated that Kerry's testimony was used by North Vietnam to demoralize American prisoners during interrogations.
o The VVAW signed the People's Peace Treaty during Kerry's tenure -- the VVAW even sent a delegation to Hanoi. The document was a laundry list of North Vietnamese bargaining points, including the key concession that the United States must agree to withdraw all troops before any negotiations could take place for the return of American prisoners.
o The VVAW was at the heart of the propaganda effort that so effectively smeared American servicemen in Vietnam as murderous, drug-addled psychotics that returning veterans were cursed and spat upon in the streets. In fact, as shown in B.G. Burkett's book "Stolen Valor," Vietnam veterans are more psychologically stable and successful than their civilian counterparts.
Can you flesh this out.....there is a story here.... to his meeting with the NV in Paris at the peace talks.
We're starting to look into it. The quote from Kerry is buried deep in the transcript of his Congressional testimony, and I haven't seen anybody else in the media so much as mention it...
Kerry's used "testimony" from the VVAW's "Winter Soldier Investigation" as the basis for his war crimes charges. Later investigators were unable to confirm the charges, and in fact discovered that a number of the witnesses were never in Vietnam, never in combat, or were imposters who had assumed the identity of real veterans.
I believe that the investigators all belonged to the Naval Investigative Service, and that their report has disappeared. I've seen no reference to any other refutation of the WSI.
The deception extended to the VVAW leadership. Executive secretary Al Hubbard claimed to have been an Air Force captain wounded piloting a transport over Da Nang in 1966. Hubbard was actually a staff sergeant who had never been assigned to Vietnam.
In defense of Kerry, he quit the VVAW at this time over this issue among others and challenged Al Hubbard repeatedly once he got wind of Hubbard's deception, at that Executive meeting. They almost came to blows.
I don't know if Hubbard got fired from the VVAW over this or if he just faded away.
That the VVAW got fooled by Hubbard does increase the burden of verification on those who believe in the WSI, so this is still a valid point.
I also included this little gem from our own SAMWolf:
More GREAT bumper stickers here. (check all 3 pages!)
While the report itself is currently unavailable, Guenter Lewy had access to it, and characterized its contents as we have reported. We would love to see the details of the report, but Lewy's synopsis, done using classified records in 1977, is certainly worthy of mention.
In defense of Kerry, he quit the VVAW at this time over this issue among others and challenged Al Hubbard repeatedly once he got wind of Hubbard's deception, at that Executive meeting. They almost came to blows.
That's not correct; although Kerry wasn't happy when Hubbard's true record came out in April, 1971, he did not leave the VVAW until that fall. Neither was Hubbard removed -- he remained with the VVAW leadership into 1972.
Worthy off mention, sure. But hardly a refutation of the WSI. I hadn't read about the classified parts before. Source?
It becomes even weaker without even a government spokesman summarizing its conclusions. In fact, they can't even find it:
Lewy said he does not recall if he saw a copy of the naval investigative report or was briefed on its contents. "I'm quite confident the information is authentic," he said. Paul O'Donnell, a spokesman for the Naval Criminal Investigative Service, said officials were searching for a copy of the report.
That's not correct; although Kerry wasn't happy when Hubbard's true record came out in April, 1971, he did not leave the VVAW until that fall. Neither was Hubbard removed -- he remained with the VVAW leadership into 1972.
Looking it up in "Home to War" by Nicosia...
Lawrence Spivak of "Meet the Press" found out "that Al Hubbard had lied about his rank, and probably about where he served as well" - calls Kerry right after the "Meet The Press" interview in April 1971. Kerry attacks Hubbard in front of the other VVAW leaders but argues for keeping him in, and defends him publicly.
Then in July something happens and Kerry attacks Hubbard again, and resigns from the executive committee. I don't know if this is when the DoD says Hubbard didn't even go to Vietnam.
I couldn't find out when Kerry left VVAW altogether.
The bullet point you object to doesn't claim to "refute" the WSI, it just notes what Lewy had to say about the report. That Lewy had access to classified materials is mentioned, among other places, in "Stolen Valor" on page 133:
"The results of this investigation, carried out by the Naval Investigative Service are interesting and revealing," said historian Guenter Lewy in his book America in Vietnam. His history of the war was one of the first to rely on previously classified documents in the National Archives. "Many of the veterans, although assured that they would not be questioned about atrocities they might have committed personally, refused to be interviewed. One of the active members of the VVAW told investigators that the leadership had directed the entire membership not to cooperate with military authorities."
One black Marine who testified at Winter Soldier did agree to talk with the investigators. Although he had claimed during the hearings that Vietnam was "one huge atrocity" and a "racist plot," he could provide no details of any actual crimes. Lewy said the question of atrocities had not occurred to the Marine until he left Vietnam. His testimony had been substantially "assisted" by a member of the Nation of Islam.
"But the most damaging finding consisted of the sworn statements of several veterans, corroborated by witnesses, that they had in fact not attended the hearing in Detroit," Lewy wrote. "One of them had never been to Detroit in his life." Fake "witnesses" had appropriated the names of real Vietnam veterans.
Lewy pointed out that incidents similar to those described at the Winter Soldier hearings did occur. "Yet these incidents either (as in the destruction of hamlets) did not violate the law of war or took place in breach of existing regulations," Lewy wrote. Those responsible were tried and punished.
That shows considerable restraint for McCain, for if it were I, I could bear to be in the same room with Mr. Kerry, even if it were theHall of Senate.
But the most damaging finding consisted of the sworn statements of several veterans, corroborated by witnesses, that they had in fact not attended the hearing in Detroit," Lewy wrote. "One of them had never been to Detroit in his life." Fake "witnesses" had appropriated the names of real Vietnam veterans.
Now this would really do some damage to the WSI, if confirmed. Unfortunately, we only have Lewy's word for it.
I can't see how it would violate security to release the names of the imposters, or at least the names of those who had their identities stolen.
Imagine the testimony of a guy saying someone had stolen his identity for the WSI, and a call comes for tracking down the imposter. Broadcast on "America's Most Wanted".
Read Burkett's Stolen Valor. He did a private investigation and determined that many of the WSI participants were phonies.
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