Iraq: Shiites Illustrate Democracy Flaw

Oregon Magazine ^ | January 20 2004 | Larry Leonard

[WaterDragon]

It may have been deToqueville who said something like, “The greatest danger facing this new American form of government will be when the people discover they can vote themselves money.” I do not recall where I read that, but it struck a chord.

The difference between Caesar and a democracy is that Caesar is a government made of one tyrant and a democracy is a government made of a crowd of tyrants.

Not that anybody educated in a American public school in recent decades knows it, but the founding fathers gave us a republic, not a democracy. That came back to me as I watched the Shiites demonstrating for direct elections in downtown Iraq yesterday.

Those folks comprise the largest single population group in that nation, and if given the chance to select via direct majority vote those who will write their constitution will, in a single day, turn that country into a Shiite theocracy. That will almost guarantee decades of trouble in the desert.

Moslems are not particularly tolerant of sects. In America, a Presbyterian has no problem with a Lutheran president, but over there it’s a different kettle of camels....(snip)

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[2banana]

Did he mean this one:

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until a majority of voters discover that they can vote themselves largess out of the public treasury."
- Alexander Tytler

[VulgarWit]

Republic--Constitutional Democracy
You say Tah-may-toe, I say ki-toe-maht

I've spent a bit of time recently trying to guess (I can't claim the education for better than a guess--I went to public school) why the United States came into being successfully while so many other attempts at democratic states have failed, fallen into totalitarianism, imploded, been absorbed... ad infinitum. I've toyed with the fact that communication in the time between the Declaration of Independence and the ratification of the constitution meant that there were probably people in what is now Western-Pennsylvania didn't even know the Redcoats had been beaten when they Ratification Vote took place. (hyperbole I grant you but you get the idea).

Now however, as illustrated in Iraq, the country in question is flooded with opportunists who new the bombs were falling before they'd even opened the proverbial bomb-bay doors. Agitators, fanatics--as if the Iraq didn't have enough of those already), U.N. Officials and all sorts of others who's sole mission is interfering with the peaceful, logical and productive construction of a country aware of the humanity of its citizens come streaming in from around the world presenting themselves as the victims of (in this case) U.S. aggression and demanding a say in a the development of the government.

In a country with no census to speak of, no way of knowing beyond the possession of pre-ass-whooping passport whether an Iraqi is an Iraqi is an Iraqi... This is turning rant-like.. the question is The gates around the Fiesta Bowl are torn down an hour after they open. The crowds flood in and the gates restored 2 hours later. How do you --without emptying the stadium and starting over--determine who's allowed to sit where and who doesn't belong and still get to the kickoff on time?

[MainFrame65]

The inherent failure of a pure democracy. The population is what, 60% Shia, 30% Sunni, and 10% Kurds, Chaldean Christians, and others? So in a pure democratic form, this is six wolves, three jackals, and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. This is precisely why a constitution with a bill of rights for minorities must precede governmental authority.

[OXENinFLA]

The long version:

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure.

From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's great civilizations has been two hundred years.

These nations have progressed through the following sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependency, from dependency back to bondage."

[kevao]

This one, maybe?

“A democracy is not a form of government to survive. For it will only succeed until its citizens discover they can vote themselves money from the treasury, and then they will bankrupt it.”

-- Karl Marx

[pawdoggie]

The problem with the Shia in Iraq is identical to the problem with the Shia in Iran in Khomeini's time: they want to impose a popular democracy before they have a constitution to guarantee basic rights, especially a First Amendment to guarantee freedom of speech, press and religion. The Iraqi Ayatollah isn't fooling anyone when he says that all he wants is "one man, one vote" (note: no "one woman, one vote"). This is an attempt to install an Iranian-style "Islamic (Shia) Republic".

[Deuce]

In a country with no census to speak of, no way of knowing beyond the possession of pre-ass-whooping passport whether an Iraqi is an Iraqi is an Iraqi...

According to British officials an electoral roll drawn up from a mixture of ration cards, health cards, and identity cards. Your Fiesta Bowl analogy is simply not analogous.

“Democracy”: two wolves and a lamb voting what’s for lunch.

“Republic” : two hundred wolves and one hundred lambs electing two wolves and one lamb to vote what’s for lunch.

“Constitutional Republic” : the same two hundred wolves and one hundred lambs electing two wolves and one lamb to vote what’s for lunch, where the constitution guarantees that lamb is off the menu. Eventually, the Supreme Court votes 5 wolves to 4 lambs that mutton is not the same as lamb.

[VulgarWit]

Granted the Fiesta Bowl thing wasn't good.. tried the "sinking ship" but that seemed too much like "begging-the-question."

Don't get me wrong--I want it to work over there... just having a hard time imaging the unification of tribes/sects whichever as disparate as are found in Iraq today--and for the past nThousand years.

[Deuce]

The inherent failure of a pure democracy.

The problem isn't with pure democracy it is with power relationships (see post #8). NO SYSTEM is so good that it can prevent those with power from abusing it. The power of special interests in our constitutional democracy is a case in point.

[Deuce]

just having a hard time imaging the unification of tribes/sects whichever as disparate as are found in Iraq today--and for the past nThousand years.

"Iraq" has not existed for a thousand years, however. It was created by the British in 1932. The western powers should just let them figure it out for themselves.

[VulgarWit]

clarification: the unification of tribes/sects ...as disparate as are found in Iraq today--and found in the region for the past nThousand years

[Killborn]

My Friend's solution: Establish the government for Iraq and tell the President, Pm, King, whatever to follow our way of govt. If she/he/they don't, we'll be back.

[Killborn]

"The average age of the world's great civilizations has been two hundred years."

Hope the US breaks that trend.

[Deuce]

As clarified: [You are] having a hard time imaging the unification of tribes/sects whichever as disparate as are found in Iraq today--and found in the region for the past Thousand years

My point is, now that they are liberated why don't we just.... leave them liberated?

[VulgarWit]

William Golding comes to mind but that would have the appearance of my patronizing the people of Iraq and that's not my intent. I don't have an answer.. that's why I asked the question.

[johnb838]

I fear we are caving in to the pressure. To do so is to spit in the faces of the soldiers, airmen, and marines who have died trying to save these God-forsaken people, and their families too.

[johnb838]

I say make three independent states. Let the Shi'a have the oil in the south. Let the Kurds have the oil in the north. Let the Sunni eat sand.

[RogueIsland]

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's great civilizations has been two hundred years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependency, from dependency back to bondage."

I think that quote was from something like "The Athenian Democracy" or something. From what I understand, nobody has ever successfully located the quote in an actual primary source, and some people consider it an unsubstantiated quote.

[Ohioan]

Thank you for trying to preach reality!

For an analysis of some of the issues involved in trying to impose democracy on Third World peoples, see Democracy In The Third World. We already have an incredibly ugly record in trying these experiments. We need not add to it!

William Flax