About the Moderators' recent efforts on the Illegal Alien threads: keep an open mind

January 7th, 2003 | Sabertooth

[Sabertooth]

You may have observed the recent effort in the forum by the Lead Moderator to scrutinize and regulate the Illegal Alien threads, which started over here.

I’ve mixed it up a lot on these threads in the two-plus year I’ve been at FR, as I have some strong feelings about the subject of Illegal Aliens. While I like to think I’ve generally kept my cool, there have certainly been occasions when I haven’t.

That said, there have been plenty of occasions where I’ve attempted to engage sincere posters who did not share my opinions, only to have them jumped on by angry posters who did. In the past I’ve made posts on threads and requests by Freepmail requesting that the more aggressive posters cool their jets… to mixed results.

I’ve also seen posts suggesting that the borders be mined, which I think is stupid, hyperbolic spleen, or posts referring to the President as “Jorge Arbusto,” which stopped being funny years ago, and is now just antagonistic. It doesn’t matter that Vicente Fox once called him that in a friendly fashion, no one on the fence regarding Illegals is going to be persuaded by ad hominem rhetoric.

On the other hand, I’ve also observed a shifting coalition of posters who are less than sincere on the other side of the debate; who are prone to using Democrat talking points to smear posters who are concerned about Illegals as anti-immigrant and closet racists. When reading their posts, one half-wonders if they aren’t moles for the L.A. Times.

Their perceptions of “bigots, bigots everywhere” and posts in that vein have also been toxic to the Illegal Alien threads, and such was often the purpose of their baiting. Success was measured in flame wars, bannings, suspensions, and getting threads nuked or moved to the backroom.

It’s been my contention, and I’ve made the point to the Moderators on a number of occasions, that moving threads to the backroom only rewarded those who don’t want Illegals discussed in this forum, and encouraged their trolling behavior.

I’ll stipulate again that my own hands haven’t always been clean in picking fights and thread jumping. I’ll also reveal that about a year or so ago I attempted to organize a call, via Freepmail, for some self-restraint on these threads. Toward that end, I contacted eight fairly high-profile posters, not all of whom were regulars on the Illegal threads, and whose opinions varied widely on the issue, with the idea of some sort of joint letter. The response was uniformly positive, but the details proved to be unwieldy, however, and the effort died on the vine.

Since then I would come and go from the Illegal Alien threads, and observe the ebbs and flows of all of the behavior I saw above.

A few months ago, I took a different tack, and got into a running conversation over my concerns with the Lead Moderator, through Freepmail.

Last week an Illegal Alien thread was moved to the Backroom, in another episode of the process I described above. This irked me a little more than usual, given the imminence of President Bush’s announcement of a new direction in immigration policy, and I ranted a little more than usual to the Lead Mod.

He was receptive to some of my criticisms, and decided to try the new approach that is now the matter at hand. He posted his account last night (emphasis added)…

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To: All

I just got a Freepmail. Without posting it or who it was from, the gist of it was as follows:

1) That the timing of this effort was suspicious.

2) That this person feels the actions taken have shifted the emphasis of the forum from conservative oriented to party oriented.

I wanted to share with you my response:

I am being evenhanded on the matter. There have been those on one side of the issue have been warned about personal attacks and baiting. There have been those on the other side who have been warned about the same.

There has been one suspension, of someone who decided he was going to repost things which had been pulled. He has no one to blame but himself.

There has been one banning, of a person who said that there was no way he was going to abide by the way things are going to be. Once again, it was his choice and if he changes his mind he can mail Jim and his account will be restored.

The timing, you can have whatever suspicions you want. The fact is that for months, someone who is mostly on your side of the issue tried to get me to do more on these threads, hating how they get pulled when they turn into flame wars and how they get backroomed when they turn into flame wars. He would point to examples of baiting. He would point to personal attacks. Sometimes I would point out the things going the other way. Finally, he convinced me and I decided to give this approach a try.

To be honest, I think it is hilarious that some think I had some idea that some policy was coming out of the White House. It is good to be thought of as that well connected, I guess, but it sadly has no basis in reality.

I am going to post my reply on the thread. I won't quote your mail or your name, although I will paraphrase it.

Regards, LM

That is all.

262 posted on 01/06/2004 6:03:37 PM PST by Lead Moderator

[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 261 | View Replies | Report Abuse | link ]

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So, if it’s not clear already, the Lead Moderator’s statements in this post are 100% accurate and legitimate. The timing of this effort was a direct result of my conversation with him, and was not the result of some conspiracy by Free Republic higher-ups, or Karl Rove, or Vicente Fox, or whatever current dark speculation is now popular.

Nor is there any overarching effort to censor a wide-ranging debate on Illegals, as far as I’ve seen. In the context of the current effort underway on the Illegal Alien threads, I haven’t received even the slightest hint that there are subjects that are off limits to me in this regard, nor have I been given the impression that there can’t be vigorous debate, and I’m hardly a party-liner in this.

Now, I’m certain that some will find it to be an abomination that I would cooperate with a Moderator, or he with me, but, as a friend of mine likes to say, there you have it.

As for the results, they’ve been a bit mixed so far, in my estimation. Not, however, because the Mods haven’t made an effort to be evenhanded. I’ve seen a few folks I warned to keep cool get swift warning when they didn’t, and I’ve seen some of the usual baiters get cease and desist orders. I’ve seen nothing to indicate that the effort to raise the tone of the debate on the Illegal Aliens isn’t sincere.

Are the Mods doing things exactly as I’d like? Nope, nor do I expect them to do so. I’ve got strong opinions and subjectivities here, so the standard of my assessment is the combined words and deeds of the Mods on these threads to correct all offenders. Things look promising thus far.

However, I do think that there are posters of diverse opinions who need to reconsider their ways, and take this effort to heart.

[Lead Moderator]

I just got a Freepmail. Without posting it or who it was from, the gist of it was as follows:

[PhiKapMom]

I just want to make sure these people are not given permanent legal status as United States Citizens. Personally do not think if you came here illegally after the age of 18 (before that you are probably a child and have no choice), that you should EVER be granted citizenship.

And if you are going to become a citizen, it is all done in English including the test that is taken. If you cannot speak English, you have no business becoming a citizen of this Country period!

I can remember when they gave blanket amnesty to the Cubans coming in and turned out some were criminals. That is just flat out wrong!

[MeekOneGOP]

[Lead Moderator]

Yes, you did. A vanity posted to breaking news titled "Thank You President Bush for Screwing my Kids, American Citizens and Legal Immigrants!".

Thanks, LM

[BushCountry]

I don't know if you noticed, but my point about the non-english speaking restaurants was not casual. This problem of non-assimilation is decades old, it is not new.

As to us being a nation of immigrants, I wonder how many people realize that the number immigrants as a percentage to the population is less today than in the 20s, 30s, 40s, ect...?

[swarthyguy]

The solution will be a new influx of illegals to take the jobs the newly legals have.

If the newly legals experience a significant drop in their employment rate, my guess is that the thinking is that those who move into the legal market will make enough of a contribution via taxes and FICA that will make up for any additional welfare/entitlement/unemployment insurance costs.

[Lead Moderator]

The problem is that there are things beyond the three simple rules which can and do cause threads to degenerate. Race baiting, flame baiting, and so forth. Usually, they don't require action. When they become overused they can develop into a problem, which is what has happened on these threads.

[Dave S]

I think this act, Posse Comitatus is the primary reason why we won't use the US Military as boarder security

No, actually its that our army is no longer large enough to guard the border in addition to its other responsibilities. As a matter of fact, we have National Guardsman and Reservists serving in Iraq at the moment. There arent enough troops to do it without becoming Fortress America.

[Poohbah]

Also, wanting troops on the border is a bit myopic. Since the border is federal, the CiC would be in charge of those troops. It would take nothing for a RAT president to simply remove them.

If there is enough political will to sharply limit illegal immigration, then putting troops on the border is unnecessary.

If there is not enough political will to sharply limit illegal immigration, then putting troops on the border is a waste of time and resources.

[ken5050]

I agree...and I had the same experience growing up, but the point is that the SECOND generation of immigrants learned, and spoke, English....the introduction of the ESL programs 20 years ago institutionalized the problem....it's easy for kids to learn a new language.....I'll never forget, 25 years ago, my neice was enrolled in a pre-k program at the local temple...of the 25 kids there, some 18 were Japanese, becuase the neighborhood had a high population of Japanese businessmen and diplomats. My sister in law was amazed, and a bit horrified initially, when after a few months her 4 year old began speaking Japanese around the house.....

[Admin Moderator]

The problem is racism, violence, profanity, etc that we just don't see, and would appreciate a heads up to those types of posts. The guidelines are pretty straight forward. Jim wants Free Republic to be somewhat clean, not a sewer like other forums. Free Republic should be a credible source for news. Just an FYI for all, not directed specifically at you, but here's the posting guidelines. The bottom line, our discussions should strive to be a better quality than any other forum on the internet.

[ken5050]

Sad, but true...also many illegals have their families abck home, to whom they remit money each month. If they're now legal..the pressure to allow them to bring their familie here will be enormous..That will be a huge strain on social services, education, and medical facilities.....once the camel's nose is under the tent..

[Sabertooth]

I agree with you. As a matter of fact, I enjoy a good rough and tumble exchange of ideas now and then. I don't even mind the name calling because that just proves that I've won the debate. The only time anyone resorts to name calling is when they can't defend their position.

At a certain point, however, the namecalling overwhelms a thread and it gets moved to the Backroom. While rougher language is allowed there, the effect is far from a free exchange of ideas. The Backroom is where nasty threads get hidden.

There has been a faction on the site that prefers it that way, so instigating flame wars to get threads nuked or moved became their M.O. Their intent has not been rough and tumble, it's been to stifle debate.

Another effect is that a lot of posters who don't care for all of the btterness have avoided the Illegal Alien threads altogether.

Civility is an enabler of the free exhcange of ideas.

[Joe Hadenuf]

Well, maybe it's me, but I just didn't see any policy violations here.

I still feel the other poster never did anything wrong. But hey, that's just my opinion.

Regards.

[PRND21]

PRND21 posted the link to VDARE

Oops.

[Pest]

Michigan has a huge hispanic population. I grew up in central Michigan around the Lansing area. I have many good friends that are hispanic. Lansing has a few very good authentic Mexican restaurants.

Detroit also has a huge Mexican population.

[hchutch]

My response to your dismissal of my concerns is as follows:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1051617/posts?page=88#88

"On this, I disagree, and this goes beyond Free Republic.

"Any movement has the added responsibility of being somewhat self-policing. Those who make illegal immigration a top priority do need to call out those who either hold the same position (or pretend to hold the same position) who start advocating violence or racism. It may not be fair, but it is reality. Tolerance of unacceptable views within a particular political faction injures that faction. That is just the way the world works."

Those are not my words. They are those of the Lead Moderator.

If you are serious, start calling out VDARE on the questionable stuff you admitted is there. Or if you won't do so, then say so.

Or can I assume that you and Mrs,. Malkin have no objection to comments like the one below?

"The civilization that we as whites created in Europe and America could not have developed apart from the genetic endowments of the creating people." — SAMUEL FRANCIS, SPEECH AT THE AMERICAN RENAISSANCE CONFERENCE, MAY 1994
http://www.nationalreview.com/frum/frum031903.asp

[Lead Moderator]

OK, so maybe what I would have thought would be intuitively obvious wasn't obvious to you. So we'll make it clear for next time, so you won't be blindsided. If you disagree with something being pulled, you can argue it with the moderators (preferably by Freepmail) and/or with Jim and try to get the decision reconsidered. If I or any one of the staff here removes something, and you, Joe, repost it because you disagree, then you will be banned.

[Willie Green]

Boy, you have some real problems with truth in your statements. First, you claimed you didn't see something which was provable that you did, now you are claiming I "initiated this petty discussion over suspending" you when you did.
But you want it up here? Fine and dandy. It is up here. You got what you went out of your way to get.

Good grief.
When is JohnRob gonna implement the promised "ignore-this-poster" filter so we can do away with this silliness?

[Kevin Curry]

Civility is an enabler of the free exhcange of ideas.

You've apprently never studied the proceedings of the Constitutional Convention of 1787.

Great ideas and solutions are frequently forged in the heat of rancorous, sometimes personal, even highly unpleasant disagreement. If the matter at hand is important enough, if it is vital enough, it is almost certain generate this heat.

Beware the idea-barren tyranny of conflict-avoidance favored by mewling mediocre minds.

[Ima Lurker]

Civility is an enabler of the free exhcange of ideas.

True. This is why is said I enjoy rough and tumble exchange of ideas. But your point is correct though because when the name calling starts I get bored and move on.