About the Moderators' recent efforts on the Illegal Alien threads: keep an open mind

January 7th, 2003 | Sabertooth

[Sabertooth]

You may have observed the recent effort in the forum by the Lead Moderator to scrutinize and regulate the Illegal Alien threads, which started over here.

I’ve mixed it up a lot on these threads in the two-plus year I’ve been at FR, as I have some strong feelings about the subject of Illegal Aliens. While I like to think I’ve generally kept my cool, there have certainly been occasions when I haven’t.

That said, there have been plenty of occasions where I’ve attempted to engage sincere posters who did not share my opinions, only to have them jumped on by angry posters who did. In the past I’ve made posts on threads and requests by Freepmail requesting that the more aggressive posters cool their jets… to mixed results.

I’ve also seen posts suggesting that the borders be mined, which I think is stupid, hyperbolic spleen, or posts referring to the President as “Jorge Arbusto,” which stopped being funny years ago, and is now just antagonistic. It doesn’t matter that Vicente Fox once called him that in a friendly fashion, no one on the fence regarding Illegals is going to be persuaded by ad hominem rhetoric.

On the other hand, I’ve also observed a shifting coalition of posters who are less than sincere on the other side of the debate; who are prone to using Democrat talking points to smear posters who are concerned about Illegals as anti-immigrant and closet racists. When reading their posts, one half-wonders if they aren’t moles for the L.A. Times.

Their perceptions of “bigots, bigots everywhere” and posts in that vein have also been toxic to the Illegal Alien threads, and such was often the purpose of their baiting. Success was measured in flame wars, bannings, suspensions, and getting threads nuked or moved to the backroom.

It’s been my contention, and I’ve made the point to the Moderators on a number of occasions, that moving threads to the backroom only rewarded those who don’t want Illegals discussed in this forum, and encouraged their trolling behavior.

I’ll stipulate again that my own hands haven’t always been clean in picking fights and thread jumping. I’ll also reveal that about a year or so ago I attempted to organize a call, via Freepmail, for some self-restraint on these threads. Toward that end, I contacted eight fairly high-profile posters, not all of whom were regulars on the Illegal threads, and whose opinions varied widely on the issue, with the idea of some sort of joint letter. The response was uniformly positive, but the details proved to be unwieldy, however, and the effort died on the vine.

Since then I would come and go from the Illegal Alien threads, and observe the ebbs and flows of all of the behavior I saw above.

A few months ago, I took a different tack, and got into a running conversation over my concerns with the Lead Moderator, through Freepmail.

Last week an Illegal Alien thread was moved to the Backroom, in another episode of the process I described above. This irked me a little more than usual, given the imminence of President Bush’s announcement of a new direction in immigration policy, and I ranted a little more than usual to the Lead Mod.

He was receptive to some of my criticisms, and decided to try the new approach that is now the matter at hand. He posted his account last night (emphasis added)…

---

To: All

I just got a Freepmail. Without posting it or who it was from, the gist of it was as follows:

1) That the timing of this effort was suspicious.

2) That this person feels the actions taken have shifted the emphasis of the forum from conservative oriented to party oriented.

I wanted to share with you my response:

I am being evenhanded on the matter. There have been those on one side of the issue have been warned about personal attacks and baiting. There have been those on the other side who have been warned about the same.

There has been one suspension, of someone who decided he was going to repost things which had been pulled. He has no one to blame but himself.

There has been one banning, of a person who said that there was no way he was going to abide by the way things are going to be. Once again, it was his choice and if he changes his mind he can mail Jim and his account will be restored.

The timing, you can have whatever suspicions you want. The fact is that for months, someone who is mostly on your side of the issue tried to get me to do more on these threads, hating how they get pulled when they turn into flame wars and how they get backroomed when they turn into flame wars. He would point to examples of baiting. He would point to personal attacks. Sometimes I would point out the things going the other way. Finally, he convinced me and I decided to give this approach a try.

To be honest, I think it is hilarious that some think I had some idea that some policy was coming out of the White House. It is good to be thought of as that well connected, I guess, but it sadly has no basis in reality.

I am going to post my reply on the thread. I won't quote your mail or your name, although I will paraphrase it.

Regards, LM

That is all.

262 posted on 01/06/2004 6:03:37 PM PST by Lead Moderator

[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 261 | View Replies | Report Abuse | link ]

---

So, if it’s not clear already, the Lead Moderator’s statements in this post are 100% accurate and legitimate. The timing of this effort was a direct result of my conversation with him, and was not the result of some conspiracy by Free Republic higher-ups, or Karl Rove, or Vicente Fox, or whatever current dark speculation is now popular.

Nor is there any overarching effort to censor a wide-ranging debate on Illegals, as far as I’ve seen. In the context of the current effort underway on the Illegal Alien threads, I haven’t received even the slightest hint that there are subjects that are off limits to me in this regard, nor have I been given the impression that there can’t be vigorous debate, and I’m hardly a party-liner in this.

Now, I’m certain that some will find it to be an abomination that I would cooperate with a Moderator, or he with me, but, as a friend of mine likes to say, there you have it.

As for the results, they’ve been a bit mixed so far, in my estimation. Not, however, because the Mods haven’t made an effort to be evenhanded. I’ve seen a few folks I warned to keep cool get swift warning when they didn’t, and I’ve seen some of the usual baiters get cease and desist orders. I’ve seen nothing to indicate that the effort to raise the tone of the debate on the Illegal Aliens isn’t sincere.

Are the Mods doing things exactly as I’d like? Nope, nor do I expect them to do so. I’ve got strong opinions and subjectivities here, so the standard of my assessment is the combined words and deeds of the Mods on these threads to correct all offenders. Things look promising thus far.

However, I do think that there are posters of diverse opinions who need to reconsider their ways, and take this effort to heart.

[Lead Moderator]

I just got a Freepmail. Without posting it or who it was from, the gist of it was as follows:

[Dane]

So you agree with Medicaid and Proposed Amnesty, or did you just forget to reply to those two as well?

What is this, the paleocon inquisition?

BTW, it is Medicare, and I don't agree with all of it but do agree with the seeds of privatization. And it is not proposed amnesty, it is proposing getting illegals on the books and have them pay taxes.

[PhiKapMom]

The question is, are these disagreements with the restrictionist position worthy of attacking another conservative over? I don't think so.

Exactly.

Not sure what the answer is about illegal immigration but somethinig has to be done and starting a discourse like the President is doing with sending his recommendations to Congress is a huge step forward. People can rant all they want about sending every illegal back, but it is never going to happen so dialogue about what to do has to be started and sincerely hope that rationale people prevail.

The one thing I have noticed is they are saying it is not an amenesty program and does not grant them permanent residency or more importantly citizenship and a right to vote. That is huge in my book.

[Joe Hadenuf]

No, you were suspended because after I told someone that something was inappropriate, you immediately jumped on me about it, posted it again

Uh, I never saw you respond to that poster. I must have missed it. I guess that was worthy of suspension huh? If I would have seen that, I wouldn't have bumped the other posters remark.

Sheesh!

[PhiKapMom]

that they have to learn English in order to stay.

I couldn't agree more. At the same time -- no ballots in anything but English -- no driver's test -- nothing!

[dben]

IMO, Bush's best move here is to let Congress fight this out and for the White House not to get too far in front on this issue.

Im not sure if there as wide support/votes for this as everyone thinks when push comes to shove.

[Lead Moderator]

"Uh, I never saw you respond to that poster"

Provably false.

[Columbine]

I think the posts were critical of, primarily, illegal Mexicans, which one can't be nowadays. Must not upset the Mexican voter, ya know.

That's really unfair. There are plently of posts here criticizing illegal immigration.

I am against it and I wouldn't be here if it wasn't allowed to post against it.

Write your congressmen and senators.

[Sabertooth]

How about you define "Open Borders" first?

Playing that game?

OK: nonenforcement of our immigration laws towad the point where national borders and sovereignty cease to matter, and the advocacy of such nonenforcement.

Make no mistake, letting politicians and Illegals off the hook with one Amnesy after another is a direct threat to this nation.

Your turn.

As to VDARE, you yourself have said some of their stuff was questionable, have you not? If so, why won't you call them out on it? Why won't Michelle Malkin? Based on past immigration threads, I can only come to conclusions that would not reflect well on you or her.

Well, that speaks more of some fallacious reasoning on your part than anything else.

Rush Limbaugh just read Michelle's most recent column on Illegals in its entirety, and called her an "immigration expert."

What's he guilty of?

If you want me to believe this thread is legit, then I want to see it reflected with some concrete action

Suit yourself.

No more "quips" like calling Bartley a "mole" because he disagrees with you on this issue.

No. I'm not going to shade the truth for your benefit.

Call VDARE and Sam Francis out when they say questionable things in columns or on the web. Otherwise, I will have to assume that you and Mrs. Malkin have no problem with the questionable stuff that comes out of VDARE, and my future posts will reflect that assumption.

You're the one dwelling on Sam Francis and VDARE. Make your case and post a thread about them. If you can't do it in this forum, find another, and flag me. I don't have anything to do with them one way or the other, haven't given them much thought, and I've no interest in passing your meaningless tests.

[PhiKapMom]

Can understand what you are saying completely. That's the last thing you need is to be attacked for your opinions. My prayers are with you and your son.

I think you speak for a lot of us that have read the threads and I know after I was told to get off only because I was a Bush supporter, I very seldom ever posted on the threads after that.

It is not worth the attacks. Hope now that all of us will be able to express our opinions without the attacks on both sides.

[Columbine]

I think the posts were critical of, primarily, illegal Mexicans, which one can't be nowadays. Must not upset the Mexican voter, ya know.

This statement should have been in italics. It's a statement of the other poster I was replying to.

[txdoda]

EXCELLENT !!

bttt

[PhiKapMom]

Maybe that is a way to raise money for FR -- we could all place bets on who is going to get banned! I like that attitude -- popcorn!

[Neets]

No way of seeing how many of those new folks actually post right?

[Lead Moderator]

Not really. I can easily review the last 100 signups though. Looks like about half of them have already posted.

[swarthyguy]

I don't know what all the fuss about illegals is about.

They do the jobs Americans don't want.

And they help the bottom line of numerous businesses around the country, in fact, are critical to the profit margins of some.

If people don't want illegals in the country, they should have the guts to demand that CEO's of companies that hire them do hard time.

Otherwise, stop your sobbing and learn Spanish.

[Sabertooth]

The one thing I have noticed is they are saying it is not an amenesty program and does not grant them permanent residency or more importantly citizenship and a right to vote. That is huge in my book.

They keep changing the definition of Amnesty, focus-grouping for something they think the public will swallow.

Consider for a moment: what is the likelihood politicians will compel Illegals to leave after they're legalized, if they won't make them leave now, when they're in violation of the law?

The entire foundation of the false claim of the need for some sort of Amnesty is that we can't solve the problem and get the Illegals out. This is Amnesty by stages, with windowdressing for public consumption.

[PhiKapMom]

LOL! You were suspended for posting/bumping someone's else's post? That must have been a doozy of a post. I don't think anyone here can top that one either!

[Joe Hadenuf]

"Uh, I never saw you respond to that poster" Provably false.

Look, since you initiated this petty discussion over suspending me, can you be specific and post exactly the violation that I was allegedly guilty of?

Go ahead, feel free to put it up here. Like you did with AAA. I don't mind at all.

I don't recall violating any policy. Could you be specific and and quote me? Maybe I missed something.

Thanks.

[Joe Hadenuf]

LOL! You were suspended for posting/bumping someone's else's post? That must have been a doozy of a post. I don't think anyone here can top that one either!

Actually it wasn't. Maybe the mod will post it. There was no violence, race, etc in the post. Unless I didn't see it. LOL!

[PhiKapMom]

You can be critical of illegals, but some of the words that are used is what got the posts pulled. Many ways to say the same thing and some people chose poorly! That's what got their posts pulled.