Posted on 01/07/2004 7:22:57 AM PST by Sabertooth
Edited on 01/07/2004 10:46:05 AM PST by Lead Moderator. [history]
You may have observed the recent effort in the forum by the Lead Moderator to scrutinize and regulate the Illegal Alien threads, which started over here.
Ive mixed it up a lot on these threads in the two-plus year Ive been at FR, as I have some strong feelings about the subject of Illegal Aliens. While I like to think Ive generally kept my cool, there have certainly been occasions when I havent.
That said, there have been plenty of occasions where Ive attempted to engage sincere posters who did not share my opinions, only to have them jumped on by angry posters who did. In the past Ive made posts on threads and requests by Freepmail requesting that the more aggressive posters cool their jets to mixed results.
Ive also seen posts suggesting that the borders be mined, which I think is stupid, hyperbolic spleen, or posts referring to the President as Jorge Arbusto, which stopped being funny years ago, and is now just antagonistic. It doesnt matter that Vicente Fox once called him that in a friendly fashion, no one on the fence regarding Illegals is going to be persuaded by ad hominem rhetoric.
On the other hand, Ive also observed a shifting coalition of posters who are less than sincere on the other side of the debate; who are prone to using Democrat talking points to smear posters who are concerned about Illegals as anti-immigrant and closet racists. When reading their posts, one half-wonders if they arent moles for the L.A. Times.
Their perceptions of bigots, bigots everywhere and posts in that vein have also been toxic to the Illegal Alien threads, and such was often the purpose of their baiting. Success was measured in flame wars, bannings, suspensions, and getting threads nuked or moved to the backroom.
Its been my contention, and Ive made the point to the Moderators on a number of occasions, that moving threads to the backroom only rewarded those who dont want Illegals discussed in this forum, and encouraged their trolling behavior.
Ill stipulate again that my own hands havent always been clean in picking fights and thread jumping. Ill also reveal that about a year or so ago I attempted to organize a call, via Freepmail, for some self-restraint on these threads. Toward that end, I contacted eight fairly high-profile posters, not all of whom were regulars on the Illegal threads, and whose opinions varied widely on the issue, with the idea of some sort of joint letter. The response was uniformly positive, but the details proved to be unwieldy, however, and the effort died on the vine.
Since then I would come and go from the Illegal Alien threads, and observe the ebbs and flows of all of the behavior I saw above.
A few months ago, I took a different tack, and got into a running conversation over my concerns with the Lead Moderator, through Freepmail.
Last week an Illegal Alien thread was moved to the Backroom, in another episode of the process I described above. This irked me a little more than usual, given the imminence of President Bushs announcement of a new direction in immigration policy, and I ranted a little more than usual to the Lead Mod.
He was receptive to some of my criticisms, and decided to try the new approach that is now the matter at hand. He posted his account last night (emphasis added)
To: AllI just got a Freepmail. Without posting it or who it was from, the gist of it was as follows:1) That the timing of this effort was suspicious.
2) That this person feels the actions taken have shifted the emphasis of the forum from conservative oriented to party oriented.
I wanted to share with you my response:
I am being evenhanded on the matter. There have been those on one side of the issue have been warned about personal attacks and baiting. There have been those on the other side who have been warned about the same.That is all.There has been one suspension, of someone who decided he was going to repost things which had been pulled. He has no one to blame but himself.
There has been one banning, of a person who said that there was no way he was going to abide by the way things are going to be. Once again, it was his choice and if he changes his mind he can mail Jim and his account will be restored.
The timing, you can have whatever suspicions you want. The fact is that for months, someone who is mostly on your side of the issue tried to get me to do more on these threads, hating how they get pulled when they turn into flame wars and how they get backroomed when they turn into flame wars. He would point to examples of baiting. He would point to personal attacks. Sometimes I would point out the things going the other way. Finally, he convinced me and I decided to give this approach a try.
To be honest, I think it is hilarious that some think I had some idea that some policy was coming out of the White House. It is good to be thought of as that well connected, I guess, but it sadly has no basis in reality.
I am going to post my reply on the thread. I won't quote your mail or your name, although I will paraphrase it.
Regards, LM
262 posted on 01/06/2004 6:03:37 PM PST by Lead Moderator
So, if its not clear already, the Lead Moderators statements in this post are 100% accurate and legitimate. The timing of this effort was a direct result of my conversation with him, and was not the result of some conspiracy by Free Republic higher-ups, or Karl Rove, or Vicente Fox, or whatever current dark speculation is now popular.
Nor is there any overarching effort to censor a wide-ranging debate on Illegals, as far as Ive seen. In the context of the current effort underway on the Illegal Alien threads, I havent received even the slightest hint that there are subjects that are off limits to me in this regard, nor have I been given the impression that there cant be vigorous debate, and Im hardly a party-liner in this.
Now, Im certain that some will find it to be an abomination that I would cooperate with a Moderator, or he with me, but, as a friend of mine likes to say, there you have it.
As for the results, theyve been a bit mixed so far, in my estimation. Not, however, because the Mods havent made an effort to be evenhanded. Ive seen a few folks I warned to keep cool get swift warning when they didnt, and Ive seen some of the usual baiters get cease and desist orders. Ive seen nothing to indicate that the effort to raise the tone of the debate on the Illegal Aliens isnt sincere.
Are the Mods doing things exactly as Id like? Nope, nor do I expect them to do so. Ive got strong opinions and subjectivities here, so the standard of my assessment is the combined words and deeds of the Mods on these threads to correct all offenders. Things look promising thus far.
However, I do think that there are posters of diverse opinions who need to reconsider their ways, and take this effort to heart.
What is this, the paleocon inquisition?
BTW, it is Medicare, and I don't agree with all of it but do agree with the seeds of privatization. And it is not proposed amnesty, it is proposing getting illegals on the books and have them pay taxes.
Exactly.
Not sure what the answer is about illegal immigration but somethinig has to be done and starting a discourse like the President is doing with sending his recommendations to Congress is a huge step forward. People can rant all they want about sending every illegal back, but it is never going to happen so dialogue about what to do has to be started and sincerely hope that rationale people prevail.
The one thing I have noticed is they are saying it is not an amenesty program and does not grant them permanent residency or more importantly citizenship and a right to vote. That is huge in my book.
Uh, I never saw you respond to that poster. I must have missed it. I guess that was worthy of suspension huh? If I would have seen that, I wouldn't have bumped the other posters remark.
Sheesh!
I couldn't agree more. At the same time -- no ballots in anything but English -- no driver's test -- nothing!
Im not sure if there as wide support/votes for this as everyone thinks when push comes to shove.
That's really unfair. There are plently of posts here criticizing illegal immigration.
I am against it and I wouldn't be here if it wasn't allowed to post against it.
Write your congressmen and senators.
How about you define "Open Borders" first? As to VDARE, you yourself have said some of their stuff was questionable, have you not? If so, why won't you call them out on it? Why won't Michelle Malkin? Based on past immigration threads, I can only come to conclusions that would not reflect well on you or her. If you want me to believe this thread is legit, then I want to see it reflected with some concrete action No more "quips" like calling Bartley a "mole" because he disagrees with you on this issue. Call VDARE and Sam Francis out when they say questionable things in columns or on the web. Otherwise, I will have to assume that you and Mrs. Malkin have no problem with the questionable stuff that comes out of VDARE, and my future posts will reflect that assumption.
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This statement should have been in italics. It's a statement of the other poster I was replying to.
The one thing I have noticed is they are saying it is not an amenesty program and does not grant them permanent residency or more importantly citizenship and a right to vote. That is huge in my book.
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Look, since you initiated this petty discussion over suspending me, can you be specific and post exactly the violation that I was allegedly guilty of?
Go ahead, feel free to put it up here. Like you did with AAA. I don't mind at all.
I don't recall violating any policy. Could you be specific and and quote me? Maybe I missed something.
Thanks.
Actually it wasn't. Maybe the mod will post it. There was no violence, race, etc in the post. Unless I didn't see it. LOL!
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