How Many Catholics Were Killed During Cromwell and Henry VIII In England?

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[ChinaGotTheGoodsOnClinton]

My daughter who is named Chelsea after Thomas Moores residence is doing a Research Paper for History on Saint Thomas Moore.

In one of his late letters he referrs to the death of 4000 Catholics in the small port town of Chelsea, but we are having a hard time coming up with a total number of Catholics killed as a result of Henry VIII's and Cromwells reformation.

All the encyclopedia's cover the number of his wifes, how much money he "borrowed" from the Church, but nowhere can I find the number of Catholics killed.

[ChinaGotTheGoodsOnClinton]

Your Historical Freeper Expertise is greatly appreciated....

[EggsAckley]

I did a Google and found this page on Dissolution of the Monastaries. here

Maybe that will help.

[vbmoneyspender]

I don't know if it is going to help your daughter on the number of Catholics killed by Henry VIII, but I would definitely recommend that she read Peter Ackroyd's The Life of Thomas More. If she decides to read this book, you should warn her that although the book definitely depicts Thomas More as a great and brave man, the later parts of the book that detail More's persecution of Protestant heretics on behalf of the Catholic Church are definitely not pretty or for the faint of heart.

[EggsAckley]

*ping*

[ChinaGotTheGoodsOnClinton]

Much thanks Eggs, but while I can find an accounting of borrowed goods, I can't find the actual number.

A book: The Final Letters of Saint Thomas Moore refers to entire villages being wiped out, but curiously the total number is absent.

It is quite surprising to me that the bottom line number is so hard to find, even an educated guesses are hard to locate.

I am sure the Anglican side and the Catholic side might differ in their estimates, but it is strange I can't find ever those guesses out there.

[blam]

"*ping*"

Thanks for the ping. No data on this one.

[Phsstpok]

Don't limit yourself to Catholics killed, however. Mary, Queen of Scots, was the advocate for restoring the Roman Church to supremacy and wasn't shy about the methods used. Though her forces generally favored burning the heretics as the preferred form of punishment, she wasn't called Bloody Mary for nothing.

Of course the Roman Church has a long history of bloody suppression of competing faiths (as do most all human controlled institutions that gain some form of temporal power). Limiting ourselves to just the British Isles there are the violent and murderous suppressions of pagan faiths and pre-Roman Christian traditions. Check out the history and historic ends of Iona and Holy Isle, as well as the burning of the Druids in their holy woods (though probably pre-Christian Rome, not Catholic Rome, in that case) as examples.

[blam]

May be some info here

[IronJack]

You might want to tell her that it's Sir Thomas
M-O-R-E.

[mc5cents]

Better question would be how many were killed by the Islamic fanatics. That is what brought on the Christian Crusades. The christians were, in the begining, just trying to protect themselves. What went on in Spain is another matter however...

[Smocker]

You looking for English Catholics or Irish Catholics as well?

[Conservative4Ever]

I think you have your Mary's confused. Mary, Queen of Scots was not 'Bloody Mary'. 'Bloody Mary' was Mary Tudor, the eldest daughter of Henry VIII, half sister to Elizabeth I. Mary, Queen of Scots was a catholic, but held at house arrest by Elizabeth until her beheading due to her betrayal and working in the background to claim the English throne. I believe Mary/Scots and Elizabeth were cousins of sorts.

Red

[RobbyS]

Remember that heresy was a state crime and became ever more a burden on the common people in both Catholic and non-Catholic states as government assumed and exercised more and more authority in the area of religion.. A good description of how the Tudor government oppressed the people cna be found in Eamon Duffy's "The Stripping of the Altars, Traditional Religion in England 1400-1580" tells how the Tudor governments, except for the Marian interlude, suppressed popular Catholicism in the kingdom. I have read elsewhere that Elizabeth executed as many Catholics as "Bloody" Mary did, and that her secret service was very effective in suppressing both Catholic and Puritan dissent.

[Conservative4Ever]

Elizabeth I really didn't care which way the populace chose to worship God. She did however have to fight to secure her throne against the Duke of Norfolk (a catholic) and other catholic dissetents wishing to remove her from her throne and place the Duke of Norfolk as monarch. He and his followers felt he had the greater claim. With the help of her loyal supporters they were found out and killed.

Red

[RobbyS]

Elizabeth was the figure head of the Protestant faction and narrowly escaped execution by Mary because Mary could not bring herself to let Elizabeth be killed. After Pope Pius V formally deposed Elizabeth, the positions of Catholics in England became precarious and recusants in dangerous of execution, especially after the Jesuits becan to infiltrate the kingdom.

[Ronaldus Magnus]

What went on in Spain is another matter however...

After 500 years of deliberate disinformation, you may find this interesting: The Truth About the Spanish Inquisition.

[RLK]

If there is an Irish club with some Irish immigrants near you, they'll tell you. They still keep track of what happened.

[what's up]

You are thinking of Bloody Mary. She is different from the Queen of Scots.

Alison Weir, a well-known writer on Tudor history says Bloody Mary's purges outnumbered those of her father (Henry VIII) and her sister (Elizabeth I) combined.

The Catholics were quite rabid in their persecutions back then as they were desperate about losing control. Also reference St. Bartholomew's massacre in France where Medici had thousands of Protestants slain.

[RobbyS]

Elizabeth's suppressions extended into Ireland, even to those in the Pale. Let us not forget that her intervention in the Low Countries beenfited the Dutch far more than the England. She not only formented rebellion in Ireland but died with her government still at war and almost bankrupt. The best thing that can be said about Her religious policy is that it avoided the horrors of the wars in France and her Church produced a theology that avoided fanaticism.

[Let's Roll]

Yes, Mary Queen of Scots (1542-1587) was Mary Stuart. Bloody Mary was Mary Tudor (1516-1558) - she was the daughter of Henry the VIII's first wife, Catherine of Aragon, and older half sister of Elizabeth. She was briefly Queen of England before Elizabeth and it was during that time that she earned the title "Bloody Mary" for her persecution of English Protestants.

Mary Stuart - Queen of Scots - was a cousin to the Tudors. Both Marys were Catholic and are often confused even though they are more than 30 years apart in age.