Army questioning soldiers' plan to armor vehicles

bayarea.com ^ | Thu, Dec. 18, 2003 | DAVID A. LIEB

[11th_VA]

JEFFERSON CITY, Mo. - Fearing roadside bombs and sniper bullets, the members of the Army Reserves' 428th Transportation Co. turned to a local steel fabricator to fashion extra armor for their 5-ton trucks and Humvees before beginning their journey to Iraq earlier this month.

But their armor might not make it into the war, because the soldiers didn't get Pentagon approval for their homemade protection.

[11th_VA]

I heard a story a few months ago about a machinest that made a 50 cal (?) cradle for his son's humvee, that gave 360 degrees line of fire. The Army bought dozens of 'em ...

[Britton J Wingfield]

They screwed up by asking if they could do it. It's easier to get forgiveness than permission.

[11th_VA]

It's easier to get forgiveness than permission.

How Cintonesque, but true ...

[al baby]

sounds to me like good old american can do type of thing above and beyond the course that kina of thing is what has made america great

[davisfh]

"Army questioning soldiers' plan to armor vehicles"

I'm hoping that the Pentagon will take a close look at some of the ideas that these guys have, take the best of those ideas, standardize them and take this effort forward. The guys probably know the basics of what needs to be done better than anyone. Lives could be saved here.

[archy]

Stryker group ping. See related story about the *official* Humvee armor package, being produced at the rate of 4 per day, *here*.

-archy-/-

[pwatson]

This is exactly the kind of Military Rumsfield is trying to transform the Brass into. Quick, mobile and responsive to the changing face of the new war Terrorism. They should promote the person who approved this and demote everyone above them right up to the Pentagon.

[Van Jenerette]

I remember putting sandbags in the floors of our gun-jeeps on the DMZ and fabricating wire cut bars mounted on the front bumpers - the North Koreans used wires and mines effectively before the Official Army caught up with the frontline troops counter measures.

The soldiers in the field are normally ahead of Washington with life-saving innovations...

Hope the troops can keep trying....

[stevem]

During the Civil War, U.S. Grant often gave armies, corps, divisions, units etc. general directions on goals and marveled at the imagination and skill of ordinary private soldiers in fashioning means from chaos.

In Europe in WWII it became apparent that Sherman tanks were really no match for the panzers. Tank units did lots of things to try for an edge. They welded their own armor plates on wherever they could. They ties tree trunks all around the tanks to make buffers. They did the same with sand bags. For the life of me, I can't imagine even General Patton finding fault with that.

When commanders stop allowing the flow of creative juices in their ranks, they will be crushing what may be the best secret weapon the US military has used since the days of George Washington in defeating the bad guys.

[Leatherneck_MT]

This story almost brought tears to my eyes not because of the Army's recalcitrance (that Angered me), but because I joined the Marines shortly after Operation Frequent Wind in South Vietnam. The attitude from Civilians at that time towards us and the Military in General was pretty poor.

Having lived through that and now seeing this and the other examples of our Families and non-related Americans stepping up to the bat to try and help in whatever way they can....

God Bless you, God Bless all of you.. each and every one of you who has written a letter, sent a cookie or a piece of chocolate, made a phone call, sent an air conditioner, visited a Vets home, thanked a Vet on the street, visited a Vet in the hospital..or.. tried to help outfit vehicles with added armor protection.

The outpouring of help from American Citizens in this war, DESPITE their Governments attempts to dissuade them, to me is absolutely mind blowing.

Thank you America I salute you
Sempr Fi

[Uncle Jaque]

I wonder how long it's been since the fat, arrogant, desk-jocky stuffed-shirt martini-sucking beauraucrat who "forbids" this sort of field innovation has ventured into a Combat Zone?

These jerks who put their sacred "rules" and "SOPs" before the lives of our brave young men and women putting their lives on the line in a faraway, hostile environment just rub me contrary to the natural lie of my fur!

I wish someone would yank their corpulent, haughty, pansy lard tushies out from behind that nice comfy desk in that cozy air-conditioned office and plop it down spat in a Humvee having to make that run from Baghdad to Tikrit every day!

A lot of those candy-arsed two-bit tin-horn brass-plated dictators are long overdue for a reality familiarzation course, PRONTO, IMHO.

Back in Vietnam they used to pack hot asphalt between the door panels of the trucks and between plywood panels on the floors, let it solidify, and lower the seats like a "low-rider" hot-rod car. And I don't think they asked any washington beauraucrat's bloody permsission to do it, either!

Where are the Gun-Trucks in these convoys, anyway?
Anyone remember those? Another example of American GI innovation - and I don't think they had to bribe any fat cat in Washington for permission to rig those up, by the way.

Somebody in that Pentagon had best wake the heck up!

[GalaxieFiveHundred]

A classic example of theory versus reality.

[Justa]

This is an old practice. We're not the British.

What's next, making them get rid of their non-issue body armor?

[LoneRangerMassachusetts]

In Vietnam, I was in the Army Engineers. We armored the cabs of our trucks with 1/4 inch thick steel plate. We didn't tell the brass, and they didn't yell at us for doing so.

[R. Scott]

The Army, which is still developing its own add-on armor kits for vehicles, doesn't typically allow any equipment that is not Army-tested-and-approved, Maj. Gary Tallman, a Pentagon spokesman …

Before deployment it could be a problem. Added armor that’s not in the books would play hell with the load plans for both air and sea movement. The traditional way to do this was to pack it separate as a bulk load in a couple containers. It can be assembled after reaching the zone – that way they are far away from the bean counters and those concerned with their kickbacks.

[Colonel_Flagg]

Not to mention the "beaks" added to some Shermans to help them plow through the hedgerows in Normandy, or the attachments spot-welded to Jeeps in Germany to break the wires the Germans would string across roads to decapitate unwary drivers.

[R. Scott]

I'm hoping that the Pentagon will take a close look at some of the ideas that these guys have, take the best of those ideas, standardize them and take this effort forward.

And of course they’ll have to have a multi million dollar study, arrange the quid pro quo for after retirement from service, triple the cost as a minimum and add a lot of unnecessary high tech.

[Polybius]

I'm hoping that the Pentagon will take a close look at some of the ideas that these guys have, take the best of those ideas...

A jury-rigged contraption attached to tanks, though up by an American G.I., helped deal with the hedgerows of Noramandy that had previously stopped American armor.

Rhino Tanks

[omega4412]

After D-Day US tanks had a hard time advancing through the hedgerows of Normandy until soldiers improvised the "rhino tank" with cutting teeth welded on.

http://cghs.dade.k12.fl.us/normandy/bocage/overcame.htm

[PsyOp]

For the life of me, I can't imagine even General Patton finding fault with that.

He wouldn't. He was a big proponent of GI's making any necesary mods. He himself tried time and again to get the Army make numerous changes on the Sherman and later tanks to no avail.