Posted on 12/01/2003 11:19:05 PM PST by Badray
Tonight was different than most of my evenings. I've spend many evenings involved in political discussions, but this one was at a (Wesley) Clark for President meetup. I was in the belly of the beast. One non-FReeper friend met me there, but soon left saying that to stay would just be 'too painful.' Perhaps I should have followed him out the door.
But, I didn't. And here, to the best of my recollection is what transpired over the next two hours.
MeetUp.com
I had heard about the meeting tonight from an announcement in the local paper and since it was close by, I decided that I wanted to see who supports Wesley Clark and why. There was lots of good news for the ABC (anyonebutclark) people. Ranging from poor planning to poor turnout, the meeting in my estimation was less than successful although they were thrilled with the turnout.
The meeting was in the middle of the restaurant - not in a private room - which didn't allow for them showing a video that they brought. They made reservations for 20 people and had 9 people show up including me. This was there 3rd meeting in this area (Pittsburgh Metropolitan) and they were happy to have 9 people. (Sidebar - at our 2 Toomey meetups thus far, we have had 20 & 22 people). The people themselves were very friendly. There was a teacher, 2 lawyers, an HR manager, a retired chemist, and 2 or 3 homemakers among them.
When we introduced ourselves, they all were ecstatic about being able to vote for Clark. I, in the interest of (almost) full disclosure, told them that I wasn't committed to any candidate yet and wanted to see why Clark was their choice. I didn't go into more detail at that point. They were happy to have an opportunity to try to 'convert' me. Little did they know they my agenda was to highjack the meeting and to see if it was possible to convert them.
One man who was pretty serious about the whole thing kept trying to get them to move into talking about the tactics, strategy, and logistics of campaigning. I kept asking questions and moving them away from anything substantial.
They all thought that Clark was extremely intelligent and getting better at his responses. D'uh. He's had a lifetime and two months. Thrilled at doing so well on the Letterman Show, I deflated that balloon by telling that Letterman never asks hard questions.
They talked of the last two debates and were pleased that the 9 dwarves are not attacking each other, but going after Bush. I countered that they haven't distinquished themselves yet either or shown enough difference between them to make a decision. That's why I had such a hard time trying to decide between them .
I was asked if I would vote for Bush if I couldn't find an acceptable democrat or if I would sit out. My reply was that if I found none of them acceptable, I might vote 3rd party. They cringed at that, remembering the 2000 Florida election where Nader cost algore the race. (Except when Bush stole it) When the serious guy told me that sitting out or voting 3rd party was ineffective and tandamount to voting for the incumbent, I replied that my vote was too important to cast for someone or something that I didn't believe in. That warmed the cockles of their heart even if the didn't get me to say that I'd vote for anyone to get rid of Bush.
That was their main focus. I asked who their 2nd choice would be if Clark was no longer in the race. Almost in unison, the answer was ANY ONE just to get rid of Bush. They really hate the man. Many of you know that I have not been his biggest fan, but their hatred is almost pathological in it's intensity.
When they started to attack Bush on Iraq and repeated all of the talking points of the DNC, I couldn't take it any longer. I raised my voice and told them that I voted reluctantly for Bush because I couldn't stand algore and although I wasn't pleased with a lot of Bush's policies, he was, and is right on Iraq and the overseas WoT.
The one lady lawyer started with Bush stealing the election. I stopped her immediately and told her to read up on the Electoral College and she would understand how our system works. Besides, none of the recounts showed algore won. I think that I really took them by surprise, because I was quite adamant.
They started on our soldiers dying for Bush and oil and Halliburton, yada, yada, yada. I responded that the war was just and it was the right thing to do. They shut up pretty quick when I told them (it's true) that my God-child's husband was just killed there last month.
My work was almost done. One couple got up to leave and then everyone did. They never showed the video that they brought. They gave it to me in the hopes of winning me over. I left without blowing my cover. I must be a better actor than I thought.
In conclusion, I doubt that, without lobotomies, there is any hope of converting any of these people. They really believe the democrat crap. I was treated courteously throughout and although I wasn't totally honest with them, I tried not to outright lie either. I am unsure of who gets my vote next November.
One bright spot, when I mentioned Hillary, there was almost a spontaneous expression of hope that she would just go away. As a candidate, they all thought that she had too many negatives and drew the most intense reactions and that she could sink the democrats chances of taking back the White House.
My tactic is to use common sense, current data and facts to discount the lie and misrepresntation so that people can think rationally about the issue. Those arguements I put forth in the last post have nothing to do with what you mentioned about the GOA.
Anyway, I've made my case and points clearly and there's no need to continue rehashing it over and over.
Then why are you attacking me on this thread? Your rhetoric on the AWB is not working with the American populace. Maybe you should look inward rather than outward when pointing the finger.
You have gotten what I consider to be somewhat emotional about that and been defensive about it, or avoiding it ever since and indicating that it is the position of most of the opposition.
As I stated, my principle mode is to diffuse and discount those misrepresentations...like I am doing on this thread with you...and you call it an attack.
According to one of your own statements (which is something I agree with), the AWB is not likely to see the president's desk. If you really believe that, then you must be able to see that the arguements against it by people like myself, the GOA, the NRA and many conservative politicians are in fact working. I pray they do.
If it does make it, then Bush will have a huge decision to make. Either go back on his political manuever to try and throw a bone to the anti-gun lobby, or risk completely alenating one of his principle base constituencies. That's all Badray is talking about on this issue IMHO, and I agree with him on it.
At this point, as far as any other comment on this issue goes, refer back to the last sentence in my post to you in number 122.
Of course they never talk about important issues, just getting rid of GW.
Where was the meetup ? The Behive ? (LOL)
Sheesh Jeff, get over your fetish with the misrepresentation of fact arguement. The reality in the real world is that the AWB ban is represented as a ban on automatic machine guns to the American populace.
JMO, a better strategy for yunz guys is not to constatnly criticize the people who probably agree with your views 75% of the time, but focus your criticism at the people who you never agree with you(the democrats).
"I like that you listened to them and got to exchange information without screaming and yelling....."
I know that at one point I got pretty loud. When they were all spouting 'stolen election', 'war for oil', 'no wmd's', DNC talking points all at once, I was at the BS overload point.
Wow! That is some shocklingly good news.
;^)
Likely it was Dean, but you should have heard the griping about Dean's people being underhanded with Clark's people. I had a hard time not laughing out loud.
I did better than I thought that I would, but it was also difficult to knock down so much incoming BS all by myself.
I've been dealing with people (and their money) for almost 50 years and I'm a pretty good judge of people. These were intelligent people, but they have their heads so far up someone's butt, that the lack of oxygen has caused some serious brain damage.
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