New Evidence in Kennedy Killing (Dallas not Mass)

History Channel ^ | Image of an Assassination

[keving]

Did anyone see the show on the History Channel about the archiving of the Zapruder film?

"Image of an Assassination"

Saturday, November 22 @ 8am ET/PT

On November 22, 1963, Dallas dress manufacturer Abraham Zapruder brought his movie camera to film President John F. Kennedy's motorcade for his grandchildren. As it turned out, Zapruder captured one of the 20th century's most important documents. In 1997, two media companies created a digital replica of the original, which is presented here, along with Zapruder's business associates, photography experts, and National Archives employees, who piece together the history of the crucial 26-second film. TV PG-V

It was very interesting. The most revealing part was that the frames that claim to be the Zapruder film are cropped copies of the original (1/3 to 1/2 screen).

The best part of the film is that the "fatal" blow when Kennedy's head explodes is cleary shown traveling from the side of the limo - grassy knoll area.

The "expanded" version or original version of the film included the trajectory of the bullet which could not be indicated on the cropped photo version.

Please view programs - it is very clear.

[HitmanLV]

Ihave seen this many times too, and clearly, the film shows a shot from behind, as evidenced by the head snapping back as the bullet comes out of the front of his head.

Probably the most amazing thing about the cult of kennedy conspiracy is how the proponents sometimes loose sight of the obvious. I read something yesterday that insisited it was 'impossible' for the assasin to get off his shots and go down four floors to a soda machine in about 80 seconds.

In fact, 80 seconds, to anyone who bothers to pay attention for 80 seconds, is plenty of time to do a lot of things. They insist with wide eyed wonder how something like that could be possible, when it's obvious to anyone in average health that they could come down 4 flights of stairs and walk across a hall to a sode machine in well under 80 seconds and not be notably winded in any respect.

Only 80 seconds, they say!!! Some of my most tender romantic memories lasted about 80 seconds, for example! ;-)

[HitmanLV]

...it doesn't make ANY sense to me that as someone is hit that the head would move TOWARD what hit it.

Sorry about your accident I hope you are well.

That being said, it makes perfect sense to anyone who has studied the matter.

[Ophiucus]

There was, however a significantly deformed bullet, consistent with passage through JFK's neck and Connally's chest/wrist.

Have you ever been involved in the procedure to remove a bullet from a human body? Especially one that has struck bone? Or one that hit or grazed more than one bone?

There is almost nothing left of those bullets original shape. Nothing! A penny ran over by a train has more form than a bullet striking bone.

The "deformed" bullet in your picture looks like it was dug out of a dirt and straw backstop at a firing range. Come to my ER and I'll show you bullets from a body.

[HitmanLV]

Which clearly means that if you believe the Warren Commission's findings, the magic pristine bullet found on the stretcher at Parkland Memorial Hospital in Dallas, then I have some swamp land to sell you.

You are right in your analysis but wrong in your conclusion.

The person only opined on the nature of the bullet coming from behind, and not on any other matter.

The truth is, the bullet clearly does come from behind and exits out of the front, leaving a pretty big hole in JFK's face.

But that doesn't mean the magic bullet found on the stretecher is legit, or anything else in the Warrens findings are legit. It is a reasonable conclusion to draw from watching the film.

Coming to that conclusion does not mean that one accepts all the conclusions of the Warren report, or the legitimacy of the pristine bullet, at all. I have no idea what makes you think it would.

[HitmanLV]

Well said, and as much is clear to anyone who has watched the film closely.

[HitmanLV]

Thanks - that is clearly and unambiguously a shot from behind.

[Vinnie]

I have seen the Zapruder film a few times. There is no doubt that Kennedy was shot from the rear. None.

The spray out the front of his head is an exit wound.

I haven't noticed his facial distortions before. I'll look for that the next time, if I ever do, watch it.

If there was a second gunman, his only contribution was a blown out piece of concrete in the curb.

I didn't realize the 6.5 mm bullet was 161 grains. Pretty heavy for that caliber. It would have trememdous penetration and could easily go through several people (vis a vis striking Kennedy and Connelly twice ).

[Endeavor]

I agree with your conclusions. I think LBJ made it possible. I believe Oswald was a CIA operative who was a patsy. There's too much of a connection to the New Orleans crowd of Bannister, Ferry, Oswald and Jack Ruby in Dallas. I buy the Billy Sol Estes/LBJ connection.

[Ichneumon]

"The final assessment on Oswald's shooting ability, or lack of it, is left to Carlos Hathcock, a retired gunnery sergeant, who has been described as the most famous sniper in American history. He was credited, while on duty in Vietnam, with 93 confirmed kills. He said he attempted to reconstruct the shooting, incorporating all the elements, height, distance, moving target and time frame, but no matter how many times he or his team attempted it, they could never duplicate Oswald's alleged performance."

Yawn. Let's check Hathcock's actual statement first, shall we?

"I don’t know how many times we tried it, but we couldn’t duplicate what the Warren Commission said Oswald did."

Note he specifically speaks of what "the Warren Commission said". The Warren Commission was mistaken about how quickly the shots were fired. They thought the shots were fired in an elapsed time of between 4.8 and 5.6 seconds.

The problem with trying to reproduce *that* scenario is that the Warren Commission was wrong. Later analysis of the Zapruder film and other evidence clearly indicates that the three shots occurred over an elapsed time of 8.3 seconds. The first shot was fired, then 3.5 seconds later the second shot was fired, and then 4.8 seconds later the third shot was fired.

Maybe Hathcock had trouble doing the shots in 4.8 seconds, but even middling marksmen could have made them in 8.3 seconds -- and have.

CBS, for example, reconstructed the shooting for a 1975 documentary. Eleven volunteer marksmen took turns firing three bullets at a moving target. None of them had practice with the Carcano's bolt action, as Osald had had almost daily in New Orleans. Yet the average performance was 5.6 seconds, with two out of three hits on the target.

Other reconstructions by other groups have achieved similar results. Hell, *I* could have made those shots. With the 4X scope Oswald was using, JFK was an effective 25 yards away at the time of the shots -- an easy shot with a rifle, especially when braced on boxes as Oswald's rifle was. Furthermore, while it's true the car was moving, it was not moving very fast, and it was moving directly *away* from Oswald, reducing its apparent motion to almost zero. And it helps that shooting from an elevation tends to cause a shot to land high, while the motion of the car would have caused an unlead shot to land low -- each effect would help to cancel the other.

Any conspiracy theorist who claims that the shots were "impossible" or "have never been duplicated" is simply grossly misinformed.

[DoughtyOne]

Thanks for the comments Vinnie.

[Oztrich Boy]

7.2 seconds? The Zapruder film establishes the timeline, and it's 6 SECONDS

First shot at c. frame 161, third shot at frame 313. 152 frames elapse. Divide by the 18.3 f/sec of Zaprider's camera gives 8.3 seconds.

6 SECONDS. One shot every two seconds

NO. The sequence runs load: aim: fire: f.161
(clock starts running)
eject: load: aim: fire: f.224
eject: load: aim: fire: f.313
{clock stopped)
cycles are 3.4 and 4.9 secs

[texasbluebell]

I do know what you're describing. I can't explain any of it any better than you are.

We're all just left to speculate as best we can, because our govt doesn't want to give us a clue.

[Mr. Wright]

That may be - however, the Commission has worked to
identify everyone on the Knoll in the general area of
the Zapruders. How come there is no mention of this
person anywhere at anytime? Nor does the media, or anyone
else even note the individual shown in this photograph!!!!

[Vinnie]

CBS, for example, reconstructed the shooting for a 1975 documentary. Eleven volunteer marksmen took turns firing three bullets at a moving target. None of them had practice with the Carcano's bolt action, as Osald had had almost daily in New Orleans. Yet the average performance was 5.6 seconds, with two out of three hits on the target.

I remember seeing that . I thought it was circa 1970 and said so in a post yesterday.

The shooters duplicated the feat, time and target, from the correct angle, etc.

It was Oswald, alone.

[texasbluebell]

The problem with trying to reproduce *that* scenario is that the Warren Commission was wrong.

The WC wrong about something? Whoa! Watch out now. A forbidden comment.

What else were they wrong about, I wonder...

(I can't answer to the timing and such that you're talking about, others probably will though. But thanks for that info.)

[Ichneumon]

Have you ever been involved in the procedure to remove a bullet from a human body? Especially one that has struck bone? Or one that hit or grazed more than one bone?

No, but Dr. Martin Fackler, president of the International Wound Ballistics Association has -- and most likely far more than you'll ever see -- so I'll defer to his expertise on this matter.

After much study on the matter, he declares to condition of the Parkland hospital bullet to be "entirely consistent" the bullet that caused the wounds of JFK and Gov. Connally. "It is a long bullet and I would expect it to be flattened on the side, just like you had squeezed it in a vice."

There is almost nothing left of those bullets original shape. Nothing! A penny ran over by a train has more form than a bullet striking bone.

Uh huh... Bullet fired through thick layers of wet newspaper (22 inches of penetration):

Bullet fired through a cow-knuckle bone (at 1140 fps) under 4 inches of wet newspaper:

Doesn't look like a penny-on-a-railroad-track to me.

More to the point, Dr. Fackler and Failure Analaysis did tests to determine the actual amount of deformation on Carcano rounds under conditions similar to the JFK shooting.

Results of these and other actual firing tests: A Carcano bullet passing through Kennedy's neck at full velocity (it hit no bone passing through JFK) was not deformed at all after passing through an appropriate amount of goat skin and meat. Another shot at full velocity (which exceeded the case for Connally, the bullet would have lost velocity passing through JFK) at an anesthetized goat striking the rib of the goat had only a slight flattening, similar to CE 399, the not-so-pristine bullet. Wait, I thought you said that any bullet striking or even grazing bone would have "nothing left" of its original shape"... Hmm.

After passing through JFK's neck and Connally's chest and grazing his rib, the bullet would have a lowered remaining velocity. Tests using a Carcano bullet at a reduced 1100 feet per second (consistent with the expedted velocity loss -- actually best estimates are 900fps) into the wrist of a cadaver resulted in a bullet that was *non-deformed* and was *not flattened in the least*, and had nowhere near the level of damage of CE 399.

The 6.5mm Carcano round is a big, heavy bullet, and it had traversed the thicknesses of *two* bodies before it struck any bone. I don't doubt that you see a lot of fragmented bullets, but I doubt that you see many which have had as much chance to be decelerated before they first contact any.

The "deformed" bullet in your picture looks like it was dug out of a dirt and straw backstop at a firing range. Come to my ER and I'll show you bullets from a body.

I accept your invitation. In which ER do you practice?

[Oztrich Boy]

There was also a book about 10 years ago from the 'lady in red'. She was one of the witnesses

She's a proven liar. her testimomy is worthless.

She told the Warren Commission (and confirmed to numerous interviwers over the years) that she lead the Charge up The Grassy Knoll when she dashed across the street immediately after Kennedy's car passed. "When I ran across the street the first motor cycle that was right behind nearly hit me".

Yet when footage of the incident was shown on TV 10 years ago, she could be clearly seen standing still on the opposite side of the street to the grassy knoll while the entire motorcade right up to the final press bus passed.
Then she starts to follow the mob to the Grassy Knoll.

[Ichneumon]

All the talk of recoil and melons misses the bigger point.

While it's true that the simple momentum of a bullet will tend to push the target in the direction of its motion (although nowhere near as much as most people -- or Hollywood -- imagine, since the bullet may be fast, but it's quite light in comparison to the body it strikes), and while it's true that matter ejected from the site of the exit wound can also propel the body *backwards* towards the direction of the shot, both of these are minor compared to the larger issue.

The larger issue is that when the brain gets destroyed by massive trauma, the body will jerk in a *completely unpredictable* manner due to the effect of the trauma on the remaining brain/spinal/nerve tissues. The direction of JFK's motion after the head shot is almost surely determined primarily by reflexive spasmodic jerking of the body due to the destruction of much of the brain, and as such nothing can be drawn about the angle of the shot from the subsequent motion of the body.

Also note that when you watch the Zapruder film, there seems to be a short but noticeable delay between the moment of the "blood spray" and the moment the head/body begins to actually move backwards, constent with a reflex action and not consistent with imparted momentum (which is imparted instantaneously).

[Maria S]

An outstanding post on your part!

The 2-hour Peter Jennings special debunked many of the conspiracy theories, and concluded that Oswald was the lone shooter. I personally do not care for Peter Jennings, but the presentation was well done, I thought. Especially the computer segments showing various positions along the roadway, etc.

An interesting segment, IMO, discussed the 1991 Oliver Stone movie starring Kevin Costner. In the words of Robert Goldberg, who wrote 'Enemies Within':

"No book or program has done more to promote the JFK conspiracy theory...[than the Oliver Stone movie]. Stone has convinced me that the most powerful historians of the 20th century are filmmakers. It is these images [from the movie] that we remember. Most Americans know of the Kennedy assassination through Oliver Stone's mind and Oliver Stone's images."

Jack Valenti, aide to LBJ said, similarly: "[The movie] was a package of unfathomable lies packaged together with a cinematic artist's great skill that was a blending and a mélange of real photographs and fictional scenes merged together with such skill that you were unable to tell the difference." He was very disdainful of Stone's claims of "dramatic license."

I would hope Barbra Streisand would begin to understand WHY so many people were upset at the "dramatic license" taken with the Reagan movie. And SOMEBODY might suggest to that fat slob, Moore, that he return his oscar for 'Bowling for Columbine.'

One further comment; I think Goldberg’s comment of "Stone has convinced me that the most powerful historians of the 20th century are filmmakers" is right on target. Liberal movie makers are making the majority of historical stuff now...and THEIR twist and delivery of historical figures are all that young people are judging to be the truth.

[THUNDER ROAD]

On the day that Desert Storm began in January of 1991, there was a headline in the news of a young man in Texas who found some information in his deceased Uncles attic having to do with JFK's murder.

I remember seeing this too.
I've been waiting for 12 years now ....
but not another word was ever heard about it.

This was not the first time that someone
has stepped up to say that they had info that would
discredit the Obviously Bogus Warren Report....
and then... would Never be heard from again !

After all of the revelations about that event..
I have been amazed this week by the number of Freepers
that Still maintain that Oswald...was the Lone GunMan !
They will not be convinced otherwise untill.....
Dan Blather , Tom BrokeJaw , or Peter****Jennings..
tell them to !!

.....THUNDER.....