Posted on 07/26/2002 11:29:06 AM PDT by HairOfTheDog
Welcome to The Green Dragon Inn
This is a chapter discussion of The Two Towers, volume two of the Lord of the Rings. It is a continuation of our discussion of Lord of the Rings that started with Fellowship of the Ring and finished a few weeks back. FoTR discussion thread.
We will cover one section of the book per week. Sometimes short, related chapters may be combined, and the process may evolve as we go to keep everybody happy! If you are joining late, jump right in, but please stick to the chapter currently being discussed. We should be a bit careful with topic and spoilers (especially if we are joined by some reading for the first time) but feel free to draw lines related to other events in the story. If you do misbehave too much you will be sent to Took's Corner. As always, if you want to chit-chat or share other news… I would probably be best to post that in The Hobbit Hole thread.
It is OK this time to share images from the Two Towers (that illustrate the current chapter of course!) They are fun snapshots that show our story coming to life. Use your head, we don't want to slow down the thread too much, but most of us love a few pics in the thread.
Every week I will ping you to the new chapter or section …. Let me know if you would like to be on - or off - this list. I will serve as the Thain of the list.
So lets read, listen and become inspired by the many aspects of The Lord of the Rings that touch us deeply and reconnect us to the values we aspire to. Many great discussions have already been had, and I hope that this thread will produce even more. Many FReepers have wonderful things to say about LoTR, whether the fantasy reconnects them with their faith, with their relationships with friends and family, or simply illustrates the splendor of great acts of heroism and sacrifice in the constant battle of virtue versus corruption.
Besides, we Tolkien fans need something to keep us busy while we wait for the film to come out December 19. This thread will adjust the schedule as necessary to be finished before the film comes out!
And as it turns out, Legolas was pretty helpful at Helm's Deep.
Oh I think I am about to find that out! - I have been out having roast beast and pints myself! - Just got home.
'The brooch of an elven-cloak!' cried Legolas and Gimli together.'Not idly do the leaves of Lórien fall,' said Aragorn. 'This did not drop by chance: it was cast away as a token to any that might follow. I think Pippin ran away from the trail for that purpose.'
'Then he at least was alive,' said Gimli. 'And he had the use of his wits, and of his legs too. That is heartening. We do not pursue in vain.'
'Let us hope that he did not pay too dearly for his boldness,' said Legolas. 'Come! Let us go on! The thought of those merry young folk driven like cattle burns my heart.'
Makes me all twittery waiting!
Obviously, Legolas couldn't have made the march passing for little orcs as Frodo and Sam did. I'm not criticizing the way that Tolkien wrote the story. No one can top the way Tolkien wrote the story. I'm just saying that had I been in Aragorn's position, I would have thought it out that way. I wouldn't have forseen the exact battle, but I might have sent him with that in mind.
WFTR
Bill
There's no question that Legolas would have been an asset in a fight -- he was a great asset at the fight he was in (Helm's Deep). Shelob stung Frodo when he "lost his mind" and began running toward the pass that was the entrance to Mordor-proper. Thus Sam had to dispatch Shelob with Sting (an event nicely woven into the Hobbit pre-quel).
I think your point is well taken that had most any of us been faced with Aragorn's decision, we probably would not have had the "intestinal-fortitude" to let the fate of the ring-bearer take its course -- but would have either gone after Frodo ourselves, or sent other capables after him. I suspect that faced with a similar decision, we'd all do something different than Aragorn did -- hedging our bets if you will.
But the lure of the One Ring is just so strong, and he wants SO badly to be able to save his people, that he feels compelled to take it from Frodo. When, after Frodo puts on the Ring then disappears, Boromir realizes what he has done, he feels like a fool for falling under the spell of the Ring, and then feels responsible for Frodo running off. He is haunted by that to the end and the knowledge that Merry and Pippin have been taken by the Orcs. But he dies knowing that Aragorn feels the weight of the people of Gondor as well, so he can turn that duty over to him.
Just a few thoughts that came from listening to the music. I haven't begun reading TTT again. I'll have to pick it up tomorrow.
Gimli did well enough when he was sweet-talking Galadriel. :)
Like I said, some of us are above average. ;-)
I've been searching through "The History of the Lord of the Rings" (by Christopher Tolkien) trying to find out how JRRT decided to have Aragorn go after Merry and Pippin instead of following Frodo. So far I haven't found any debate about it. I'll keep looking in "The History..." and in "The Letters" to see if I can find out.
What's interesting to me is that in earlier drafts when the Fellowship breaks, the orcs aren't there. Merry and Pippin just get lost and wander into Fanghorn and Treebeard. Legolas and Gimli head north (back home?) and in one version are captured by Saruman and in another meet Gandalf. Boromir doesn't die and he and Aragorn go to Minas Tirith where Boromir becomes jealous of Aragorn, falls further into evil, and does a Wormtongue. Poor Boromir! I'm glad in the end that he "kept his honor".
Off to more research!
That "History of LOTR" is some deep stuff! It's beginning to look like JRRT never meant to have Aragorn or anyone other than Sam follow Frodo to Mordor.
Right now I'm checking out the "Aragorn" references in "The Letters" for explanations.
I did the same thing, only I've now listened to it so many times that I've had to put it away so I won't get tired of it. I find it actually very evocative of the English countryside. Don't know if Shore meant it that way, but I suppose he must have, since it was such an important theme of Tolkien's.
The raid/trap by the Orcs was perfect because the fog of war (along with the personal crisis of Frodo) created a situation of total chaos, where no one knew where anyone was. And so off they went in many directions. It's interesting that he thought of discarding Legolas and Gimli at this point (by sending them off back home) -- of all the Fellowship (maybe even including the now dead Boromir), from this point forward they have the least "book time". They play a significant role in the battle at Helm's Deep, but are riders-along for much of the rest of the tome. Perhaps he thought of "sending them home" because from that point forward in the story plan he didn't really have anything coming for them but bit parts -- and perhaps those bit parts were added to or embellished later on in the story to justify keeping them along.
I don't think I'll ever tire of it!
I was just skimming the material and looking to see if he ever had a plot where someone goes after Frodo and Sam. No luck so far. I should add an in depth reading of "History of LOTR" just to make sure. :)
I was surprised that an early plot had Merry and Pippin wandering away and no one going after them (poor hobbitses!) Or was that the plot line where Aragorn thought all four hobbits were together? It gets confusing after a while!
In the movie it's clear when Frodo and Aragorn talk that Frodo must go on alone. Aragorn recognizes that.
But in the book, when they're first discovered gone it's not until they discover the missing boat that they realize what has happened.
But I think you already knew that...;-)
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