LoTR-The Two Towers: Book discussion (The Green Dragon Inn) III

[Scott from the Left Coast]

The only drawback to your idea of sending Legolas after Frodo would be that the presence of an Elf would have raised greater interest from the Orcs at Cirith Ungol (who captured Frodo) than a couple of Halflings -- one of whom (Sam) they thought got carried off by Shelob. Neither the Orcs (nor Sauron, apparently) showed intense interest in Frodo once it had been determined that the ring was not with him. But an Elf with them as well? I'd suspect closer attention would have been paid in that event. Sending an Elf with the halflings would have raised their profile somewhat, and that could be disastrous.

And as it turns out, Legolas was pretty helpful at Helm's Deep.

[Scott from the Left Coast]

Yes, I think what you say is true.

[HairOfTheDog]

Doh! Pints are not conducive to typing.

Oh I think I am about to find that out! - I have been out having roast beast and pints myself! - Just got home.

[HairOfTheDog]

Thank you for joining us Bill! - Good post! - When you run through those scenarios like that, I realize that the way Tolkien did it was best. I look so forward to the movie coming out. The first preview trailer that played along with FoTR choked me up when it opened with the three finding Pippin's leaf clasp on the trail.

'The brooch of an elven-cloak!' cried Legolas and Gimli together.

'Not idly do the leaves of Lórien fall,' said Aragorn. 'This did not drop by chance: it was cast away as a token to any that might follow. I think Pippin ran away from the trail for that purpose.'

'Then he at least was alive,' said Gimli. 'And he had the use of his wits, and of his legs too. That is heartening. We do not pursue in vain.'

'Let us hope that he did not pay too dearly for his boldness,' said Legolas. 'Come! Let us go on! The thought of those merry young folk driven like cattle burns my heart.'

Makes me all twittery waiting!

[WFTR]

Actually, my thought was that Legolas would have killed Shelob at Cirith Ungol. I realize that we are violating the "don't get ahead of the story" rule, but my thought was that one serious fighter might have been of value to Sam and Frodo. The fight at Cirith Ungol would have been the place where that value would be seen. I've forgotten the exact sequence there, but I remember a sense of panic that led to the hobbits being particularly vulnerable to the onset of the attack. I think Legolas would have helped them keep their composure and maybe even had the light out before Shelob made her move. I don't think Shelob would have attacked two elvin swords and the light. If she had, I think Legolas would have been able to kill her.

Obviously, Legolas couldn't have made the march passing for little orcs as Frodo and Sam did. I'm not criticizing the way that Tolkien wrote the story. No one can top the way Tolkien wrote the story. I'm just saying that had I been in Aragorn's position, I would have thought it out that way. I wouldn't have forseen the exact battle, but I might have sent him with that in mind.

WFTR
Bill

[WFTR]

I moved in January and had been preparing all through December. After a few months in my new city, I found a house and am still working on it. I haven't had three hours to spend watching the first movie yet. I don't know when/if I'll see the second.

[HairOfTheDog]

I think you would like it... most all do! - It is wonderful. The DVD will be out next week and you can watch it on your own time! I highly recommend them.

[Scott from the Left Coast]

I'd plead that we're OK on the violation of the rules thing! When discussing the breaking of the Fellowship, there's no way to hypothesize on different choices without examining their effect on what comes after.

There's no question that Legolas would have been an asset in a fight -- he was a great asset at the fight he was in (Helm's Deep). Shelob stung Frodo when he "lost his mind" and began running toward the pass that was the entrance to Mordor-proper. Thus Sam had to dispatch Shelob with Sting (an event nicely woven into the Hobbit pre-quel).

I think your point is well taken that had most any of us been faced with Aragorn's decision, we probably would not have had the "intestinal-fortitude" to let the fate of the ring-bearer take its course -- but would have either gone after Frodo ourselves, or sent other capables after him. I suspect that faced with a similar decision, we'd all do something different than Aragorn did -- hedging our bets if you will.

[SuziQ]

I've been listening to the soundtrack a LOT. I made a tape from the CD and have it on almost all the time in the van. The music is SO evocative of the actions of the film, and I am always struck by the part which I like to call "The Redemption of Boromir". He wasn't so much dismissive of the Hobbits as he was protective, I'd say. I loved the part in the movie where he's 'pretend sword fighting' with Merry and Pippin and they tackle him. He looks like he's having fun with them.

But the lure of the One Ring is just so strong, and he wants SO badly to be able to save his people, that he feels compelled to take it from Frodo. When, after Frodo puts on the Ring then disappears, Boromir realizes what he has done, he feels like a fool for falling under the spell of the Ring, and then feels responsible for Frodo running off. He is haunted by that to the end and the knowledge that Merry and Pippin have been taken by the Orcs. But he dies knowing that Aragorn feels the weight of the people of Gondor as well, so he can turn that duty over to him.

Just a few thoughts that came from listening to the music. I haven't begun reading TTT again. I'll have to pick it up tomorrow.

[Overtaxed]

Dwarves channel their creativity through the work of their hands, not their voices. We're doers rather than talkers (or singers).

Gimli did well enough when he was sweet-talking Galadriel. :)

[Corin Stormhands]

Gimli did well enough when he was sweet-talking Galadriel. :)

Like I said, some of us are above average. ;-)

[Overtaxed]

Good Morning!

I've been searching through "The History of the Lord of the Rings" (by Christopher Tolkien) trying to find out how JRRT decided to have Aragorn go after Merry and Pippin instead of following Frodo. So far I haven't found any debate about it. I'll keep looking in "The History..." and in "The Letters" to see if I can find out.

What's interesting to me is that in earlier drafts when the Fellowship breaks, the orcs aren't there. Merry and Pippin just get lost and wander into Fanghorn and Treebeard. Legolas and Gimli head north (back home?) and in one version are captured by Saruman and in another meet Gandalf. Boromir doesn't die and he and Aragorn go to Minas Tirith where Boromir becomes jealous of Aragorn, falls further into evil, and does a Wormtongue. Poor Boromir! I'm glad in the end that he "kept his honor".

Off to more research!

[HairOfTheDog]

Good stuff OT!

[Overtaxed]

Good Morning!

That "History of LOTR" is some deep stuff! It's beginning to look like JRRT never meant to have Aragorn or anyone other than Sam follow Frodo to Mordor.

Right now I'm checking out the "Aragorn" references in "The Letters" for explanations.

[HairOfTheDog]

I am glad you have it! - That sounds like a good book to pick up!

Hullo! - Good Morning!

[Sam Cree]

"I've been listening to the soundtrack a LOT. I made a tape from the CD and have it on almost all the time in the van"

I did the same thing, only I've now listened to it so many times that I've had to put it away so I won't get tired of it. I find it actually very evocative of the English countryside. Don't know if Shore meant it that way, but I suppose he must have, since it was such an important theme of Tolkien's.

[Scott from the Left Coast]

It sounds like his drafts really improved as he went through ideas. He needed an impetus, a situation, that broke up the Fellowship. Otherwise it would appear that they just went their own ways out of boredom with each other! Some getting lost, Legolas and Gimli just giving up and going home. Aragorn and Boromir heading to Minas Tirith and to heck with the hobbits!

The raid/trap by the Orcs was perfect because the fog of war (along with the personal crisis of Frodo) created a situation of total chaos, where no one knew where anyone was. And so off they went in many directions. It's interesting that he thought of discarding Legolas and Gimli at this point (by sending them off back home) -- of all the Fellowship (maybe even including the now dead Boromir), from this point forward they have the least "book time". They play a significant role in the battle at Helm's Deep, but are riders-along for much of the rest of the tome. Perhaps he thought of "sending them home" because from that point forward in the story plan he didn't really have anything coming for them but bit parts -- and perhaps those bit parts were added to or embellished later on in the story to justify keeping them along.

[SuziQ]

I've now listened to it so many times that I've had to put it away so I won't get tired of it.

I don't think I'll ever tire of it!

[Overtaxed]

That "History of LOTR" is interesting stuff but it's pretty involved. There's a lot of back and forth in the plot line as he developed his ideas.

I was just skimming the material and looking to see if he ever had a plot where someone goes after Frodo and Sam. No luck so far. I should add an in depth reading of "History of LOTR" just to make sure. :)

I was surprised that an early plot had Merry and Pippin wandering away and no one going after them (poor hobbitses!) Or was that the plot line where Aragorn thought all four hobbits were together? It gets confusing after a while!

[Corin Stormhands]

Or was that the plot line where Aragorn thought all four hobbits were together?

In the movie it's clear when Frodo and Aragorn talk that Frodo must go on alone. Aragorn recognizes that.

But in the book, when they're first discovered gone it's not until they discover the missing boat that they realize what has happened.

But I think you already knew that...;-)