Posted on 08/05/2025 6:02:51 AM PDT by marktwain
On the evening of May 21, 2025, Justin Lee and his brother-in-law, John Long, were charged by a grizzly bear and were forced to shoot it in self-defense.
They were hunting for mushrooms along Spring Creek, on a property owned by Justin, a few miles north of Choteau, Montana. Both men are longtime residents of the area. The creek has lots of mature cottonwoods, waist-high dead grass, and a fair amount of brush in some areas. Justin and John drove to the property on a side-by-side four-wheeler. When they were close to the area where mushrooms had been found, they parked the side-by-side and proceeded on foot.
Justin is 57 years old, and John is 43. Justin is disabled and cannot move fast on foot. John was about 50 yards ahead in the woods when Justin saw him running back toward him, saying, “There’s a bear! There’s a bear!” John said he had seen a bear and a cub.
The bear was south of them. Justin could see and hear the bear moving cross-wind toward the east, trying to get wind of them. The wind was mostly from the northwest, about 15 mph. In complex terrain, wind forms eddies and swirls around in complex patterns.
They saw the bear moving toward them from about 50-70 yards away, now southeast of them. The bear stood up, sniffing and looking. She appeared to get their scent and started jogging toward them. Justin thought: she is trying to work herself up to a charge.
(Excerpt) Read more at ammoland.com ...
Bears are getting more numerous and bolder toward humans since the government made them protected species. I think they should be shot on sight to trim the population.
Yeah, bears, mountain lions, everything.
Not to mention the “Ring of Fire” waking up.
Fun times!
The unintended consequences are more people are making it a practice to be armed when in the woods.
I do not live in griz country but if I did, I'd carry my 44 mag Ruger Redhawk w/full charge ammo. But I read about grizs being stopped with all kinds of calibers/ammo.
Feral humans are also making it a practice to be armed everywhere that humans roam free.
What kind of ammo was in the 1911 and which stopped the bear?
A 300 pound grizzly is a baby.
A very reasonable size for a female mountain grizzly in the spring. She might have reached 500 pounds fully larded up for hibernation.
Yes. That is a very small Grizzly
Quite.
Where I hunt Mule Deer, there are lots of wolves, black bear, cougar, coyotes, wild dogs and the odd meth critter.
Everyone carries a sidearm and multiple mags.
Separately in Montana, I’ve run into Griz 8 times. I carry a .357 with Buffalo Bore now. The 10mm semi-auto sounds like a possible improvement…
I’d prefer the reliability of a revolver for bears. If you can’t do the job with 6 rounds you are out of luck anyway. It will be on you.
Rather small for a grizzly.. I saw folks at Walmart this weekend that went twice that..
Rather small for a grizzly.. I saw folks at Walmart this weekend that went twice that..
Grok comparison:
The .357 Magnum and 10mm Auto are both powerful handgun cartridges often considered for defense against large predators like bears or mountain lions. Below, I’ll compare their ballistic differences relevant to this specific use case, focusing on energy, penetration, bullet type, and practical performance. Since this is a defensive scenario, I’ll prioritize factors like stopping power, penetration through tough hide and bone, and real-world effectiveness.
Ballistic Comparison
1. Caliber and Bullet Specifications
• .357 Magnum:
• Bullet diameter: 0.357 inches (9.07 mm).
• Common bullet weights: 125–180 grains (gr), with 158 gr and 180 gr being popular for large predator defense.
• Bullet types: Soft point (SP), jacketed soft point (JSP), or hard-cast lead for deep penetration.
• Muzzle velocity: ~1,200–1,500 fps (feet per second), depending on barrel length (e.g., 4–6 inches) and load.
• 10mm Auto:
• Bullet diameter: 0.400 inches (10.16 mm).
• Common bullet weights: 135–200 gr, with 180–200 gr being favored for large predators.
• Bullet types: Flat-nose full metal jacket (FMJ-FN), jacketed hollow point (JHP), or hard-cast lead for penetration.
• Muzzle velocity: ~1,100–1,400 fps, depending on load and barrel length (e.g., 4–5 inches).
2. Muzzle Energy
• .357 Magnum:
• A 158 gr JSP at 1,400 fps generates ~680 ft-lbs of energy.
• A 180 gr hard-cast at 1,300 fps generates ~675 ft-lbs.
• Energy drops significantly with shorter barrels (e.g., 2.5-inch snub-nose revolvers may lose 200–300 ft-lbs).
• 10mm Auto:
• A 180 gr JHP at 1,300 fps generates ~675 ft-lbs.
• A 200 gr hard-cast at 1,250 fps generates ~700 ft-lbs.
• High-end loads (e.g., Buffalo Bore 200 gr hard-cast at 1,300 fps) can exceed 750 ft-lbs.
• Analysis: The two calibers are comparable in energy, with 10mm having a slight edge in hotter loads. Both deliver sufficient energy for large predators, but energy alone isn’t enough—penetration is critical.
3. Penetration
• .357 Magnum:
• Hard-cast 180 gr loads can penetrate 24–30 inches in ballistic gelatin, ideal for breaking through heavy bone and muscle in animals like black bears.
• Softer JSP loads may expand and penetrate less (~15–20 inches), which is less optimal for large predators.
• 10mm Auto:
• Hard-cast 200 gr loads (e.g., Buffalo Bore, Underwood) can penetrate 30–40 inches in gelatin, excelling at reaching vital organs in larger animals like grizzly bears.
• FMJ-FN or JHP loads penetrate ~18–25 inches, depending on expansion.
• Analysis: 10mm generally offers superior penetration with heavy, non-expanding loads, which is critical for large predators with thick hides, fat, and bones. .357 Magnum is adequate for smaller predators (e.g., black bears) but may struggle against larger grizzlies.
4. Sectional Density and Bullet Design
• Sectional Density (SD):
• .357 Magnum (180 gr): SD ~0.202.
• 10mm (200 gr): SD ~0.179.
• Higher SD aids penetration. The .357’s smaller diameter gives it a slight SD advantage, but 10mm’s heavier bullets offset this with greater momentum.
• Bullet Design:
• For large predators, non-expanding bullets (hard-cast or FMJ-FN) are preferred to ensure deep penetration through bone and tissue.
• 10mm’s larger diameter creates slightly wider wound channels, but this is secondary to penetration for predator defense.
• Both calibers have excellent hard-cast options from brands like Buffalo Bore, Underwood, or Grizzly Cartridge.
5. Recoil and Shootability
• .357 Magnum:
• Sharp, snappy recoil, especially in lightweight revolvers (e.g., 2.5–4-inch barrels).
• Manageable for practiced shooters but challenging for rapid follow-up shots in smaller guns.
• 10mm Auto:
• Stout recoil, often described as “pushy” rather than snappy, but heavier than 9mm or .45 ACP.
• Semi-auto platforms (e.g., Glock 20) allow faster follow-up shots compared to revolvers, but recoil can still be intimidating.
• Analysis: 10mm in a semi-auto may allow faster, more accurate follow-up shots, critical in a dynamic predator encounter. However, .357 revolvers are simpler and more reliable in rugged environments.
6. Magazine Capacity and Platform
• .357 Magnum:
• Typically found in revolvers (5–8 rounds, usually 6).
• Slower to reload but highly reliable in harsh conditions (e.g., mud, snow).
• 10mm Auto:
• Found in semi-autos like the Glock 20 (15+1 rounds) or 1911 platforms (8–10 rounds).
• Higher capacity and faster reloads but more prone to malfunctions in extreme conditions.
• Analysis: 10mm’s higher capacity is a significant advantage for multiple shots against a charging predator, though .357 revolvers are robust and less likely to jam.
7. Practical Effectiveness for Large Predators
• .357 Magnum:
• Widely regarded as the minimum for black bear defense when using heavy, hard-cast loads (e.g., 180 gr at 1,300 fps).
• Marginal for larger predators like grizzly bears or moose, where deeper penetration is needed.
• Historical data (e.g., studies by bear experts like Stephen Herrero) suggest .357 can work against black bears but is less reliable for grizzlies.
• 10mm Auto:
• Considered more effective for larger predators due to superior penetration with heavy loads (e.g., 200 gr hard-cast at 1,250–1,300 fps).
• Increasingly popular for bear defense in Alaska and the Rockies, with anecdotal reports of stopping black and grizzly bears (e.g., 2016 Alaska grizzly incident with a Glock 20).
• Still considered a minimum for grizzlies compared to larger calibers like .44 Magnum.
• Analysis: 10mm is generally better suited for larger predators (grizzlies, large boars) due to its penetration and capacity advantages. .357 Magnum is adequate for black bears or smaller threats but less ideal for bigger game.
Recommendations for Large Predator Defense
• Best Loads:
• .357 Magnum: Buffalo Bore 180 gr hard-cast (1,300 fps, ~675 ft-lbs) or Underwood 180 gr hard-cast. Prioritize heavy, non-expanding bullets for penetration.
• 10mm Auto: Buffalo Bore 200 gr hard-cast (1,300 fps, ~750 ft-lbs) or Underwood 200 gr Xtreme Penetrator. Avoid hollow points; focus on hard-cast or FMJ-FN.
• Firearm Choice:
• .357 Magnum: A 4–6-inch barrel revolver (e.g., Ruger GP100, S&W 686) maximizes velocity and control. Snub-nose revolvers lose significant performance.
• 10mm Auto: A high-capacity semi-auto like the Glock 20 or Springfield Enhanced 1911 offers versatility and firepower. Ensure reliability with heavy loads.
• Context:
• For black bears or smaller predators, .357 Magnum is sufficient with proper shot placement and heavy loads.
• For grizzly bears or large predators, 10mm Auto is preferable due to deeper penetration and higher capacity, though .44 Magnum or larger is ideal.
• Shot placement is critical for both: Aim for the central nervous system (brain, spine) or vital organs. Multiple hits may be required.
Conclusion
The 10mm Auto has a slight edge for defense against large predators due to its superior penetration, higher magazine capacity, and faster follow-up shots in semi-auto platforms. The .357 Magnum is a solid choice for black bears or smaller threats, especially in rugged environments where a revolver’s reliability shines. For grizzly or brown bear defense, 10mm with heavy, hard-cast loads is the better option, though both are considered minimum calibers compared to .44 Magnum or .454 Casull. Always prioritize training, shot placement, and situational awareness, as no handgun guarantees stopping a charging predator.
My practice is a chest rig and full daypack, run around the parking lot until winded, run up to the otherwise empty line, spin three times until I’m dizzy, draw my Ruger Blackhawk Flattop in .357 with Buffalo Bore hardcast, and drop 4 out of 6 seven inch steel at 25 yards in about 5 seconds.
I had previously heard of better penetration from Buffalo Bore hardcast in .357. Hmmm…..
Wonder if the cub was old enough to survive? If very young, he might have made a good zoo animal.
Post of the day! LOL!!
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