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Tesla Vs. Toyota: Electric Dreams Clash With Hybrid Revival In Automotive Showdown
Technical Trading ^ | 12/07/23 | Nabaparna Bhattacharya

Posted on 12/07/2023 7:45:05 AM PST by SeekAndFind

The battle between electric vehicles and hybrids has taken a new turn reportedly, with Elon Musk of Tesla Inc. (NASDAQ:TSLA) advocating for an electric future, while Toyota Motor Corporation (NYSE:TM) revives its focus on hybrids.

Musk, aiming to surpass Toyota as the top automaker by 2030, faces a challenge as U.S. EV sales growth slows and hybrids gain new popularity, according to a news report by The Wall Street Journal.

This shift has been attributed to the recent success of Toyota and Lexus in the hybrid market.

"The buzz of electrification in the industry has somewhat mainstreamed hybrids," David Christ, the head of the Toyota brand in North America, said during an interview with The Wall Street Journal. "It's really had an awakening."

Hybrids offer a cost-effective alternative to all-electric vehicles, providing the benefits of electrification without the need for charging infrastructure. Toyota, a pioneer in hybrid technology with the release of its Prius sedan more than 20 years ago, is witnessing a resurgence in hybrid sales, countering the previous year's slump and challenging the narrative that EVs are the sole future of transportation.

Despite Tesla's notable 26% increase in all-electric vehicle sales, according to data firm Motor Intelligence, Toyota's broad range of electrified options, including hybrids, has seen a 20% increase in deliveries this year.

Toyota's strategy, which includes both hybrids and EVs, responds to diverse consumer needs, a viewpoint initially resisted by investors but is now gaining recognition

Toyota's commitment to this approach is exemplified by its announcement that the next-generation Toyota Camry in the U.S. will be exclusively hybrid.

This decision follows customer preferences, with hybrids often outselling their internal combustion counterparts in recent years. Toyota's ability to improve the cost and performance of hybrids has made them an increasingly attractive option for consumers.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Society; Travel
KEYWORDS: ev; hybrids; tesla; toyota
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To: Republican in occupied CA

Yep, most boring car I ever owned was a Toyota. I was about 10 months into a new job and badly needed a new car. I found a new Toyota Celica ST the dealer had at the back of the lot. It was burgundy with a half vinyl roof and a 5-spd. At the time there was a big difference in the ST and the GT.

Three years and 36,000 miles later it ran like new, was tight as drum, perfect transportation. I traded it on an 1986 Honda Prelude, a lot more fun to drive. I think the ‘ST’ meant ‘Secretary Transportation’, but it allowed me to save up for a car I really wanted. For all I know the Celica is still running, never had a better built car.


41 posted on 12/07/2023 10:57:50 AM PST by Roadrunner383 (m)
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To: SeekAndFind

EVs are not going to be suitable in much of the world’s landmasses. Africa and South America do not have the infrastructure nor most of Asia. The entire world is Toyota’s market. Not just a handful of countries run by eco loonies.


42 posted on 12/07/2023 11:11:31 AM PST by Seruzawa ("The Political left is the Garden of Eden of incompetence" - Marx the Smarter (Groucho))
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To: SeekAndFind
Hybrids offer a cost-effective alternative to all-electric vehicles, providing the benefits of electrification

This seems very backward to me. Battery cars are not the norm, to which other things are an alternative. Hybrids are a modification of the drive-train in fuel powered car, offering possible improvements in fuel efficiency.

Battery cars are an alternative to fueled cars. Fueled cars burn the fuel onboard; battery cars burn their fuel at a distant location.

The article has propaganda cleverly hidden in it.

43 posted on 12/07/2023 11:16:11 AM PST by NorthMountain (... the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed)
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To: SeekAndFind
with hybrids often outselling their internal combustion counterparts

More propaganda. A hybrid car is, BY DEFINITION, an internal combustion powered car.

44 posted on 12/07/2023 11:17:29 AM PST by NorthMountain (... the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed)
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To: Jeff Chandler
Unfortunately, hybrids do not last as long as ICE cars and cost more to maintain...

Jeff, I was the 3rd owner of a 2007 (2nd gen) Prius which had one rebuilt battery pack ($1,400) during its life. I sold it at 237,000 miles and it still performed flawlessly.

It got 55 miles per gallon in town and 50 on the highway. Everything worked on this car. Excellent A/C as well.

Many 2nd gen Prius owners easily get 300k to 400k before retiring them. Private taxi service folks love the Prius.

Best car I ever owned!

45 posted on 12/07/2023 11:19:35 AM PST by Buffalo Bob
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To: ProtectOurFreedom
ChatGPT: "...As a general guideline, the internal combustion engine (ICE) might kick in when the hybrid battery's state of charge (SOC) drops to around 20-30%"
46 posted on 12/07/2023 11:34:48 AM PST by steve86 (Numquam accusatus, numquam ad curiam ibit, numquam ad carcerem™)
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To: Jeff Chandler
Unfortunately, hybrids do not last as long as ICE cars and cost more to maintain

Hybrids are basically the same to maintain as a gas car -- no better, no worse. Still have filters to change and oil to change. Tires still wear out. Brakes typically last much longer.

47 posted on 12/07/2023 11:37:27 AM PST by Campion (Everything is a grace, everything is the direct effect of our Father's love - Little Flower)
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To: Tell It Right

There is one thing to be considered when considering a hybrid. They DO make a lot more sense than an EV, but are still a very complicated piece of machinery, not without their own problems,& are likely to be more expensive to repair than a normal vehicle. I am basing this on some limited experience with hybrids.


48 posted on 12/07/2023 12:50:37 PM PST by oldtech
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To: ProtectOurFreedom

Who is going to handle the cost of re-doing the neighborhood electrical power distribution system so some folks can recharge their EVs? I see a problem brewing here.


49 posted on 12/07/2023 12:54:21 PM PST by oldtech
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To: oldtech

If the hybrid battery fails will the vehicle still run on ICE? Or does the ECU say NOPE, got to get the battery pack replaced before we’re gonna turn the engine over?


50 posted on 12/07/2023 12:58:33 PM PST by steve86 (Numquam accusatus, numquam ad curiam ibit, numquam ad carcerem™)
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To: hinckley buzzard

Agreed. Also, interesting anectdote: was discussing the purchase of a new Corvette with a 21-year old yesterday. Part of her response was “Thank God you’re not looking at a Tesla. I am NOT a Tesla girl.” FWIW.


51 posted on 12/07/2023 1:00:54 PM PST by drwoof
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To: oldtech

True that. A valid argument against hybrids is that they are double complex being part ICE engine and part electric motor. That is one of the reasons I went with two cars being one EV car and one ICE pickup so that each car has one system to maintain.


52 posted on 12/07/2023 1:11:43 PM PST by Tell It Right (1st Thessalonians 5:21 -- Put everything to the test, hold fast to that which is true.)
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To: Buffalo Bob

That’s good to know. The Sienna we rented was very nice, except for the seats, but I wasn’t expecting upgraded seats from Budget. I did like the hideaway feature. We stashed the third row and were able to haul the two of us plus two large grown grandsons, two boogie boards, two inflatable kayaks, three sets of ocean fishing gear, all our luggage, and a picnic cooler. Once we were unloaded, the third row came back up to seat the wife’s brother and his wife who met us there.


53 posted on 12/07/2023 1:15:08 PM PST by Jeff Chandler (THE ISSUE IS NEVER THE ISSUE. THE REVOLUTION IS THE ISSUE.)
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To: drwoof

A 21 year old girl who likes gasoline Corvettes? Mmm, mmm


54 posted on 12/07/2023 1:35:03 PM PST by ProtectOurFreedom (“Occupy your mind with good thoughts or your enemy will fill them with bad ones.” ~ Thomas More)
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To: Republican in occupied CA

The days of the sub 25,000 car for ICE is over the median price for a new car any car of any size is 48K and climbing this is never coming down again. The EPA is one reason the other bigger reason is the UAW has made it so expensive to manufacture a car and have a high profit margins.

Check out Tesla quarterly financials its public information their P&E ratio is triple or more of the UAW autos. They cast a car in a single piece of aluminum by robots. There is only two moving parts in their electric motors also made with robots vs thousands in a ICE engine. Even the packs are being assembled by robots everything else is nonunion labor. Tesla is kicking butts and taking names with labor costs. For city driving on a 100 mile round trip commute 5 days a week there would be no better vehicle than a model 3 FSD it literally drives itself in stop and go traffic hands free. With chargers at work one would never need to charge at home. 100 miles round trip is two sigma past the average commute of 40 miles per day. For a two or three car family it makes sense to have a dedicated commuter car fueled for free at that.

You can get a base model 3 RWD range plus for around 27K and the LR Version for 30K used with 25,000 mile I see model 3s all the time for 22_25K some with FSD that’s a $5000 option. Those carry a no questions asked 8 year / 120,000 mile warranty. That represents a sunk cost of 26 cents per mile over the warranty life for a one year old 25k mile used car. You won’t find a ICE car for less than $35K in that trim and size bracket. A virtually identical sized S60 Volvo one year old at 25k miles is going to be in the $40k range and won’t have full self drive at all. Try taking a Volvo past 150k miles and the maintenance is nightmare been there done that twice. For raw commuting the economics make sense for a model 3 even at 40 mile round trips.


55 posted on 12/07/2023 3:26:15 PM PST by GenXPolymath
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To: GenXPolymath

A 2023 Corolla LE is $23K base price, at least local to me in Norcal. Still more than twice of what any car is worth in my opinion, but then I live in a house that cost less than that when we bought it (and is worth 3/4M)

I have an old Chevy truck for nasty and heavy stuff and the big bass or drumset, but a car is just a tool to get my ass from one point to another, cheap and reliable are the only criteria (I did put a pretty nice stereo aftermarket, but I have a commute). Any car that won’t get 200K+ with only oil, tires and gas needing attention is designed and bought by morons, IMO.

Anyone spending $35K is, to me, like someone with a private jet or yacht- more power to ye, but that’s stupid money (to this cheap old pensioner).

Regards, great post.


56 posted on 12/08/2023 8:15:32 AM PST by Republican in occupied CA (We had enough government in 1789)
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To: Republican in occupied CA

A Toyota Corolla is the smaller base model car a Tesla Model 3 is as large as the full sized Camery which are base in the 30Ks and is in the same or higher luxury class as the nearly identically sized S60 Volvo that start in the high 40s my last S60 was in the 50s without all the Tesla self drive tech. Tesla is a technology company first a car company second.

They should but won’t for ideological reasons give the option of a 2cyl 1000cc Atkinson cycle engine running as 45% plus efficiency just to top up the packs on long trips 5 gallons of petrol would push a model 3 sized car 300 miles at an easily achievable 60mpg.

I leased a 2023 Prius for two months recently it was returning 70+mpg in stop and go traffic, 65 in an suburban areas at 60mph surface streets and 58mpg at a solid 85mph over 500+ mile DFW to New Orleans runs.

This is with a hybrid drive train not optimized for a single operating point. A range extended EV would run its engine at one speed and one setting its peak efficiency point which is for a spark ignited direct injection engine at 75% peak torque and near 3000rpm. That’s the design point for your electric generator which would be 98% eff when designed for that speed and charge point only. With a large battery pack every other operating point is handled by the battery just like as if the engine was not there. A 1000cc Atkinson engine should put out 1hp per 10cc so 100 running flat out at 75% peak torque that’s 75hp or 55kw. Given that a model 3 at highway speeds is using 260 watthours per mile at 75mph avg. Those are real world numbers from a model 3 I rented in Houston from hertz. A model 3 needs 19.5kw to maintain 75mph continuously the rest of the 55kw available is dumping 35kw into the pack net or 136 miles added to the pack per hour of engine run time.

A range extended Tesla makes all the sense in the world. 70+ mpg in the city as a Tesla 3 only uses 150 watthours per mile in stop and go traffic I have seen as low as 90wh/mi the slower the traffic the better since regen captures more and air resistance scales at the 4th power of velocity. A range extended M3 would easily be returning 60+ on long hwy at 75 mph or more. If Tesla made a range extended model 3 I would buy one tomorrow morning.


57 posted on 12/08/2023 3:57:02 PM PST by GenXPolymath
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