HMMMmmm...
Look here, WS-547, at what this human way back in 2023 said about GOD!
Almost Neanderthalic in his thinking!
I wonder if he ever read this:
Posted on 09/03/2023 10:10:00 AM PDT by daniel1212
Certainly that logical fallacy, a superficial ignorant parroted polemic (such as invokes everything from the Flood to AIDS as a moral argument against God), can be answered. There simply is no contradiction btwn God being omnipotent (and omniscient) and all good (from whom all good has come, as the creator of an exceedingly vast, systematicity ordered universe, exquisitely fine-tuned for our physical life), and the allowance of evil, For unless you want a world in which mankind is like a cloud or a robot, then allowing evil is a necessary good if: Man is to be a being with the ability to make moral choices; And if such choices are to have effects/consequences, for both good and evil, And which consequences can affect others as well as self, directly or indirectly. But which God can make to ultimately work out for what is Good, in the light of all that can be known. Which includes just punishment for eternal beings which manifest they wanted the opposite of God, (John 3:19–21) though only being punished according to what they could and did choose to do, (Deuteronomy 24:16; Luke 10:1- 15; Revelation 20:12; cf. 2 Corinthians 8:12) while making all to work out to the benefit of those who honestly choose Him over sin, seeking and finding the mercy of God in the Lord Christ. (Roman 8:28) Consider some alternatives. God could have, 1. made us (and angels) with no moral standard or sense or deprived us from the moral ability to respond to or choose good [morally insensible, even as with clouds]. 2. granted us free moral agency, but never have given us anything to choose between [negation of moral choices, and no devil or God]. 3. left man only with recourse to finite competing sources as his ultimate object of spiritual affection and allegiance and source of security, and supreme judge of what is good [atheism and atheistic governments]. 4. called man to make the Creator their ultimate object of spiritual affection and allegiance and source of security as being what is right and what is best for man, versus finite created beings or things being one's "god," and provided moral revelation and influences. Yet always have moved us to do good, and never have allowed us to choose evil (even if as by making believing in God and choosing good so utterly compelling — like God appearing daily and always doing miracles on demand, and preventing any seeming evidence to the contrary - so that no man could attempt to make excuses for not believing in Him [effective negation of any freedom to choose]). 5. allowed created beings a negative alternative to faithfulness to the creator, and the ability to choose evil, but immediately reversed any effects and not penalized such [negation of consequences to choices]. 6. allowed us to do bad, but restricted us to a place where it would harm no one but ourselves [isolated consequences to choices]. 7. allowed us to choose between good and evil, and to affect others by it, but not ultimately reward or punish us accordingly [negation of judicial and eternal consequences, positive or negative]. 8. given us the ability to choose, and alternatives to chose between, and to face and overcome evil or be overcome by it, with the ability to effect others and things by our choices, and to exercise some reward or punishment in this life for morality, and ultimately reward or punishment all accordingly [pure justice]. 9. restrained evil to some degree, while making the evil that man does to work out for what is Good, with justice yet with mercy, and grace, towards those who want good, and who thus the One who is supremely Good. 10. in accordance with 8, the Creator could have chose to manifest Himself in the flesh, and by Him to provide man a means of escaping the ultimate retribution of Divine justice, and instead receive unmerited eternal favor, at God's own expense and credit, appropriated by a repentant obedient faith, in addition to the loss or gaining of certain rewards based on one's quality of work as a child of God. And eternally punish, to varying degrees relative to iniquity and accountability, those whose response to God's revelation manifested they want evil, [justice maintained while mercy and grace given]. But man, as an exceedingly finite being who is but a speck in this universe, and in the sea of humanity, and whose existence on earth occupies an infinitesimal amount of time, and who is very ignorant of what all the effects of his choices have been and will be, in time and eternity, and quite impotent to make them all work out as he/she wants, not only in one’s own life but in others, and for this life, as well as eternity, is in no position to sit in judgment upon an omniscient and omnipotent being and giver of life, who alone knows what all the effects will be of even our most seemingly insignificant actions or inactions, not only in this life but for eternity. And can make all work out for what is Good, for what is just, as well as showing mercy and grace. And which the God of the Bible has often manifestly done already, and promises to do for those who choose the ultimate Good, the living and true God, (Romans 8:28) by His grace, thanks be to God. This the choices of an omniscient omnipotent Being cannot be judged as being evil or good by extremely finite and relatively ignorant man. Not that - in my ignorance myself - I have/do not too often protested His dealing with me as I subjectively imagined Him, though objectively blessed, and I am being blessed right now listening to, uplifting spiritual worship: Oden Fong and Friends: Lord of All Creation. Glory to God
That was my first response in this thread - #283
Very helpful. Are you conceding that God apparently doesn't "fix things?" And are you then also proposing the "False Dilemma" that the only other alternative is that we evolved from goo? (That would be a whole new and diff. discussion!)
I'd expect goo to be a bit more selective in eliminating the bad things that happen in the world.
I would NOT expect goo to be particularly adept at stopping earthquakes, supernovae, etc.
Doesn't seem like a good game plan to me. Maybe survival of the fittest is the best we can hope for after all.
"Doesn't seem..." "Maybe..."
You are contributing nothing substantive here. You are only generating "white noise."
Take a definite stand, or profess ignorance, or leave the conversation. Bystanders who have nothing to contribute but sarcastic wise-cracks are an annoyance.
Regards,
This is what I believe, and, of course I do mean “I”:
IN HEAVEN, there is NO EVIL. It is the perfect place to be.
ON EARTH, God has given us the “big deal”, that is the FREEDOM TO CHOOSE. This cannot be stressed enough. Everyone, You and I, have the ability to CHOOSE. And that is wonderful.
Once you choose, you either have HEAVENLY BLISS...NO
EVIL...OR THE ALTERNTIVE...ALL EVIL.
There is perhaps no organized religion that would agree with that, but it is my belief.
Bottom line: Obey the ten Commandments as closely as you can.
Simply put, it all depends on us to CHOOSE the “NO EVIL” way to live our lives.
HMMMmmm...
Look here, WS-547, at what this human way back in 2023 said about GOD!
Almost Neanderthalic in his thinking!
I wonder if he ever read this:
Your call IS important to me, so stay on the line.
1. I wasn't even ALIVE when most innocent kids died in Nazi concentration camps.
2. Always trying to personalize the argument! Also "Demand for Perfection" Fallacy!
A (me): "It is immoral to drop anthrax bombs on that orphanage."
B (you): "I just saw you sneeze into your hand! Until you get your own act together and adhere to total hygiene, you have no right to decry the dropping of anthrax bombs on orphanages!"
You are committing a prime example of Whataboutism!
Also: You have no idea what I may or may not have done for refugees!
Let's keep this discussion on topic. Else you'll soon be demanding that I upload the commendations I've received for helping refugees. My point stands / my questions stand - regardless of my personal merits.
God, in contrast, could alleviate the children's suffering by speaking a mere word, right?
Regards,
Thank you for "outing" yourself / for disqualifying yourself as a conversation partner acting in Good Faith!
Regards,
Look a bit different than the title of the thread - “If God is all powerful, then why can’t he stop evil from happening? That would mean he’s not all powerful. If God refuses to prevent evil, then he can not be all good. So can a Christian explain how God is all powerful and good in this case?”
My; aren't you the bossy one!
At least you READ my stuff!
Do you disagree that you have a choice to help the suffering refugee children?
I wasn't aware that this is a requirement to post here.
I'll look into the matter.
8:02 - time for breakfast.
Later.
Perhaps God isn't easily defined and understood. Usually, our picture of God is nothing but a projection of our own naive view of life.
I don't God fixes things for the same reasons that humans don't run around fixing everything for their children. Children have to learn from their mistakes and if parents fix everything for them--remove all the injustices and dangers that they might encounter--they would end up with very weak, naive, unwise, and entitled children.
It seems more likely that life is a kind of boot camp. We are allowed to make mistakes (including sin) because that's just about the only way we learn. No pain, no gain.
And as to natural catastrophies...stuff happens. No one wants to live in a protected bubble. That's why men sail off into the unknown, fully aware that there are dangers ahead. We like danger. That's why we leave home in the first place.
Life is dangerous. But in facing those dangers--slaying dragons so-to-speak--we become more alive and grow.
Apparently not
If I may be so presumptuous...
There is no order without chaos.
There is no positive without negative.
There is no life without death.
There is no good without evil.
In order to create, God gave mankind free will. Free will to choose between good and evil. All evil stems from the choices of mankind, of man.
"Come on in! The lava's fine!"
During the excavations in Pompeii, the remains of over one thousand victims of the 79 AD eruption have been found. During the first phase of the eruption, those who hadn’t left the city in time were trapped in their homes or shelters, buried by a shower of pumice stones and lapilli or killed by the roofs and walls collapsing under the weight of falling volcanic debris, reaching about three metres in height. Of these victims, only the bones have been found. Afterwards, a high-temperature pyroclastic flow hit the city at high speed and filled all the spots not yet engulfed by other volcanic materials, so that anybody still in the city died at once of thermal shock. The bodies of these victims remained in the same position as when the pyroclastic flow hit them and, being covered by calcified layers of ash, the form of their bodies was preserved even after the biological material decomposed. Thanks to the method perfected by Giuseppe Fiorelli, since 1863 a little over a hundred casts have been made.
Fallacy of Trivialization.
Let's see how "philosophical" you are when it happens to you.
Regards,
The simple fact is without moral unchanging law there is no evil... only a transient view of right/wrong defined by man... and one that is subjective to many forces...
Evil is real because there is righteousness... it is constridiction to God and His creation.
We suffer because we have rejected Him... and we are not righteous... we are selfish and desperate from God...
You look at the suffering as something a living God would not allow... but you miss the communication of the penalty for rebelling against Him.. an everlasting separation from Him... and our ultimate death...
He told us what we would experience without Him.. and here we are...
But in His mercy, instead of snuffing our existence out... He gave us a means to rejoin Him... Through His own suffering and death... in our place... and it is given to us freely as a gift... through His grace and desire for us to be with Him...
Yes He knows our suffering, He lived through it, but He believes our eternal salvation is worth more than our temporary existence in this fallen world... which includes suffering...
and yes, a fallen world includes accidents and natural catastrophes... but that is the consequence of walking away from God and His original creation... which did not include such... As the Bible states, it was not His intention for such...
He could return now and stop it all... but how many would be lost for eternity because they were not born or did not repent... He is patient... and against the thinking of man... will come when the time is right to collect His children...
In the end the measure of ultimate suffering is through death and internal damnation...
But in His love and mercy He has provided us with the opportunity to rejoin Him for eternity in a new world where this suffering will cease...
You call that prolonging suffering and proof He is not loving...
I see it as just the opposite... He is righteousness and must be true to His word... and the wages for our transgressions is death... but He has made away for us to conquer such through Him...
In His mercy He gave us another chance... if only we seek Him and repent...
In the end, man could alleviate much of the suffering in this world if only we followed His lead... but even here, with all this suffering around us, we rebel against it... making it even worse...
Even if we did completely follow His teachings,there would still be trials and tribulations... because that will not change until this world passes away... but He also told us to take heart... for He has overcome this world and will remake it as it was meant to be... with us who follow and love Him...
I pray you one day see that... we do not suffer for no purpose... there is a reason for our existence even in this imperfect world... which is take care of each other and emulate Him... and to hold on to His promise that we will be with Him in His Kingdom when this reality melts away...
For as He said... we will suffer for a little while... but that will not compare to the joy of living eternally with Him...
God Bless...
What makes you think really bad things haven't happened to me?
If you want to live in a safe space, be my guest.
I prefer to live in a world full of danger.
Projection.
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