Posted on 07/21/2022 6:07:25 AM PDT by max americana
On July 21, 1918, German soldiers captured a U.S. soldier from the 307th Infantry Regiment, 77th Division, near Baccarat, France. He was carrying a weapon they had never seen: a Winchester Model 97 pump-action shotgun.
On September 15, 1918, the German government officially protested the use of the shotgun.
Hey...I took a shot.
Germans used a butcher bayonet that had ripping teeth on it.. Same kind of thing, IMO....
Once again, it's obvious that you never used one in actual combat. They are "9mm lead balls" but soft lead, so their impacts are more deadly. I saw a VC hit with buckshot as he ran away from us about 30 yards away and two of the nine pellets hit him, instantly ending the threat. Birdshot at 15 feet or less is murderous - just ask any cop that seen somebody shot at that range with a 12 gauge.
The shotgun is a simple, reliable and deadly weapon and you would be well advised not to take on someone who is armed with one - unless, of course you feel sure that your "decades of practice with point and shoot" would overcome the sheer fire power of that shotgun.
P.S.; if your AR is "too loud" for defending your home and your family, maybe you aren't as committed as you say your are.
That made me laugh!!! Thanks!!!
And nearly 100% lethality. The chance of surviving that kind of a hit anywhere except your hands is very low. That is why shotguns are so dangerous at close range.
Ok, but I have never seen buckshot expand at all, some deformity from barrels and clearly when it hits hard muscle or bone in deer/hogs but not like a hollowpoint or wadcutter would.
Obviously many dramatic injuries and fights ended with shotguns and as I said to each his own and in accordance with what works for them-—for me the ability to put 15+ rounds on target in the time a 12 could be fired 2-3 times is an easy decision, especially when the situation might require engaging multiple targets.
As far as being committed—I’ve had to defend myself with weapons and been through the process—firing an AR indoors it likely to disorient my family considerably more than 9/40 and im confident enough with my pistols that that is my choice. IF i knew i had a very unlikely situation with more than a couple targets then I’d act accordingly (and probably never take out my hearing protection)
here’s some other input as well
I don’t disagree with that at all, I do disagree with the people who think its a some wonder weapon that will hit obliterate anything in the general direction its pointed at
the effectiveness of shotguns for personal defense is largely urban legend
You can keep your finger on the trigger, to keep it in the depressed / pulled position, and as I like to say; just rack them off, not missing a beat.
I have no way of knowing, but I'll beat dollar's to doughnut's, the barrels were cut down, not so much for weight, more to be able to handle in tight spaces / widths of a trench.
Clearly it varies by person, however the easy equation is :
what weapon can you reliably and quickly put projectiles on target with the best? There are different answers for everyone.
Not really. Since Miller was dead, no one showed up to make his case so there was no evidence introduced that shotguns were used by the military. Had an attorney been there to make the case, the course of gun control could have been much different. Of course, an honest reading of Miller should have negated the NFA.
Why attack Bert personally
Saying a 97 is heavy is hardly inflammatory
We took in a jack russell, and three kittens over the years, but there are just so many you can’t take them all and you don’t know their rabies status and with your own animals and kids and grandkids you can’t take any changes. And with animal control being a case of calling 10 times and getting an answer 1 time out of 10, they are useless. Most of the time the shelter is closed for lack of funds and workers.
I really despise those jerks who dump their animals on someone else. They are so gutless and irresponsible and make others pay the price and do their dirty work. The cats and small dogs usually don’t last long because of the owls and hawks that are in the woods in my area.
Unless, of course it's said without context. The money quote was "the shotgun was very heavy". Very heavy compared to what? a squirt gun?
Sorry, but those of us who carried these things for a living consider "very heavy" to be ridiculous. Very heavy should be reserved for carrying an 81mm mortar tube or baseplate or an assembled M2 .50 uphill or a 106mm Recoilless Rifle over any distance at all.
Yes, I’m aware that Miller was dead etc. I think the use of shotguns in WWI trench warfare was common enough knowledge at the time That SCOTUS didn’t need to be told. And yes, any honest reading of Miller (or the Constitution) would negate the NFA entirely. We are not ruled by honest people.
Dear Germans and Japs,
Don’t start no sh!t, won’t be no sh!t!
No American shotguns or atomic bombs to you! Simple.
****
Yup. Had the same stupid arguments about the atomic bomb. YTF did you bomb Pearl Harbor? No pearl Harbor, no mushroom clouds. Don’t start crap that you cant finish.
>So, what’s this about “urban legends”?
His reply was to my post which expressed doubt about the original video claiming a Model 97 (12 ga, 20.5” barrel) pump shotgun was killing 3 soldiers per shot.
I would agree that there is an urban legend from movies and such that shotguns don’t need to be aimed or that they project a cone of death.
In my note I linked one of many shot spread articles — this one testing an 18.5 open choke at 40 yards, and still the buck was inside one person-width.
So: only one guy, not 3 ... but nobody sane wants 9 .35 caliber simultaneous wounds.
“But poison gas was fine and dandy 🤪”
****
Exactly LOL. These Huns really are a hoot. Start 2 world wars, lost both. The irony..
I’m of mixed opinion on the 12ga riot gun with #4, 00 buck.
I like it for the “ a bunch of lead right now” feature, the pretty big pattern once you get past 30’ or so, and maybe the “ that racking sound”.
But, and most reasonably these days, I don’t care for the non- penetration of 3A soft armor and the low capacity relative to both fighting handgun (which also suffer the same inadequacy) and carbine.
So, I guess I’ll stick to hard fast and vicious 556 rounds as my primary .
Others opinions will vary, but experience wins the argument.
I indeed expect thugs to be at least soft armored if they come home....
Among the weapons I have on hand is a shotgun loaded with buckshot. Bird shot is for birds. The following video is of a school shooter that luckily was an idiot and had his shotgun loaded with very birdshot. Shot a girl at about 10 feet and hit her square in the chest. She stopped and walked away in a daze. (She survived but required an operation on her shoulder.)
Another photo of another male student shows him with his shirt off and walking with the EMTs, he has a circular “rash” on his chest due to the pellets.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIzXUgH7do8
Just prior to shooting the girl he did kill a boy with the barrel of the gun at the base of his head.
The hero that tackles him is a student.
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